05-01-2004 08:15									#1
	America did NOT capture Saddam Hussein... Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

before you guys mistake me for Baghdad Bob (Iraqi Info Minister)... you should read the following reports. The Kurds captured Saddam. But the American public certainly won't be told the truth, as Bush will take all the credit for the apprehension of Saddam.

from the Christian Science Monitor:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1230/...date.html?s=mes

quote: So why would the US military not want to give full credit to the Kurds for Hussein's capture? The Herald suggests a motive: "[PUK leader] Jalal Talabani's links to Tehran have always worried Washington, and having his party grab the grand prize from beneath their noses would be awkward to say the least."

A good read, I suggest you guys take a look.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0104-01.htm

quote: For a story that three weeks ago gripped the world's imagination, it has now all but dropped off the radar. Peculiar really, for if one thing might have been expected in the aftermath of Saddam Hussein's capture, it was the endless political and media mileage that the Bush administration would get out of it . After all, for 249 days Saddam's elusiveness had been a symbol of America's ineptitude in Iraq, and, at last, with his capture came the long-awaited chance to return some flak to the Pentagon's critics. It also afforded the opportunity to demonstrate the effectiveness of America's elite covert and intelligence units such as Task Force 20 and Greyfox . And it was a terrific chance for the perfect photo-op showing the American soldier, and Time magazine's "Person of the Year", hauling "High Value Target Number One" out of his filthy spiderhole in the village of al-Dwar. Then along came that story: the one about the Kurds beating the US Army in the race to find Saddam first, and details of Operation Red Dawn suddenly began to evaporate. US Army spokesmen - so effusive in the immediate wake of Saddam's capture - no longer seemed willing to comment, or simply went to ground. But rumours of the crucial Kurdish role persisted, even though it now seems their previously euphoric spokesmen have now, similarly, been afflicted by an inexplicable bout of reticence.

so called "mainstream" corporate media conglomerates won't cover this story... but it seems the propaganda blitz by Bush was, as most things, not entirely accurate.

	05-01-2004 08:20									#2
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i always have a deep suspicion of stories which the 'corporate mainstream media' won't touch, usually because they turn out to be a load of old toss.

	05-01-2004 08:26									#3
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I remember Bremer's press meet that sunday. He didn't mention who captured Saddam. I don't remember having seen any official gloating that was the work of US soldiers, at least on that day.

But it's obvious Bush will milk what political profit he can from the arrest, even though the American soldiers may be not the ones who captured him. And there would be something true about that: only the American attack on Iraq allowed for a climate where Saddam could be arrested. It's one of the very few things Bush can be proud of, so let him be pride of that.

	05-01-2004 08:30									#4
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Nope, not touching this one.

	05-01-2004 08:30									#5
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I don't know, but I thought that the fact that Saddam was not captured by American forces a moot point. I pointed out well over a week ago that he was captured by Kurds. I was actually stunned that so many people had latched on to the propaganda.

	05-01-2004 08:30									#6
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney i always have a deep suspicion of stories which the 'corporate mainstream media' won't touch, usually because they turn out to be a load of old toss.

yes, because "Britney Spears getting married" and "Michael Jackson molestation" are the standard litmus test of what is newsworthy...

I kind of figured by posting this, the usual suspects of conservatives stuck in denial would give some kind of response like this. Or DD would say something like, "Who cares?".

	05-01-2004 08:33									#7
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Nice objective reporting:

quote: After all, for 249 days Saddam's elusiveness had been a symbol of America's ineptitude in Iraq, and, at last, with his capture came the long-awaited chance to return some flak to the Pentagon's critics

Hmmm, let's see...

We knock over the place in a little over a month, while one ******* who has had years and virtually unlimited resources to prepare for any possibility hides behind that delay of a month and goes to ground amonst his tribal relatives and loyalist hacks.

So we're "inept" for failing to capture one ******* hiding out in thosands of square miles of countryside amongst millions of civilians.

Gee, with that little editorial coloring on the story, I'm sure they're ever so objective in everything else.

	05-01-2004 08:33									#8
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well sava, all i'm saying is that you're going to have to come up with something a little better than 'commomdreams.org' (!) to convince most people.

	05-01-2004 08:33									#9
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney i always have a deep suspicion of stories which the 'corporate mainstream media' won't touch, usually because they turn out to be a load of old toss.

Good man!

	05-01-2004 08:34									#10
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Interesting articles Sava.

	05-01-2004 08:35									#11
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Thats because the rumor was that one of his wives turned him in.

Plus some things don't match up, he apparently had 750k in dollars, 2 assault rifles and a pistol.

	05-01-2004 08:35									#12
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney well sava, all i'm saying is that you're going to have to come up with something a little better than 'commomdreams.org' (!) to convince most people.

christian science monitor?

MtG: Name me a media outlet that is "objective".

	05-01-2004 08:36									#13
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Why do people find CNN and New York Times more trustworthy? These media have a vested interest they are trying to protect.

	05-01-2004 08:37									#14
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I'm not DD, yet I ask it: "who cares?"

Really, what difference does it make if US or kurdish soldiers arrested him? (I'm actually willing to believe those are the Kurds, given Bremer's discretion on the topic on that day) Does it make any less true that Saddam will n,ow not come back? The the only positive outcome of the war has been finally reached?

	05-01-2004 08:40									#15
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well CSM (who i'm not overly familiar with btw) seems to be simply quoting from others, such media giants as the sydney morning herald and the scotish sunday herald and doesn't even say anything definate then.

	05-01-2004 08:41									#16
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Uh, I remember hearing news reports specifically stating that US soldiers took the compound. The Kurds may have assisted, but it was US soldiers that did it.

	05-01-2004 08:43									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I'm not DD, yet I ask it: "who cares?"

I care. The whole set up was presented as a propaganda scoop. If people lie I care, because then you can't trust them. Of course they perfectly managed to botch up this simple propaganda effort by giving Saddam an oral examination in front of a camera. Total backlash ensued right there. Also I would not believe that the organisation who captured him gave him up for free.

	05-01-2004 08:45									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I'm not DD, yet I ask it: "who cares?" Really, what difference does it make if US or kurdish soldiers arrested him? (I'm actually willing to believe those are the Kurds, given Bremer's discretion on the topic on that day) Does it make any less true that Saddam will n,ow not come back? The the only positive outcome of the war has been finally reached?

Personally, I think it's important to point out that we were lied to... and that Bush is exploiting the Kurdish efforts for his own political gain.

quote: Uh, I remember hearing news reports specifically stating that US soldiers took the compound

sheep lead by their shepherd.

	05-01-2004 08:47									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc If people lie I care, because then you can't trust them.

I thought the Bush administration already lost its last shred of trustworthiness ca. one year ago, when Powell exposed his irrefutable proof of Iraqi wommdies to the UN

To me, this whole affair is one more (possible) lie from the Bushies in order to get political gain. Not the first time nor the last time. These people are liars, and I'm baffled one can still be surprised that they are lying.

	05-01-2004 08:48									#21
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker

ignorance and apathy...

I just hope America wakes up in time to see they are being screwed...

Maybe I should turn to the dark side and become a Repuke... I'd be going to hell, but at least I'd get a piece of the pie while I'm here.

	05-01-2004 08:50									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Sava christian science monitor? MtG: Name me a media outlet that is "objective".

Did I say there were any? Or did I say any were "trustworthy?"

We don't really know **** about anything that happens outside our direct experience, unless we have first hand access to a lot of witnesses and information and the time to evaluate all of it. Hell, I wouldn't be phased by the notion that OBL has been dead since he lost access to his dialysis machine (he looked like **** in that last video) and that all subsequent purported OBL or AAZ audiotapes have been studio jobs prepared by the US government to bolster the administration's agenda at certain key times.

I don't have any evidence that's the case, but nothing which is physically and technically possible surprises me in this world - certainly nothing relating to human nature.

	05-01-2004 08:52									#23
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quote: ignorance and apathy...

You post a random news article claiming something that's been told by the mainstream media is false (yup, BBC is soooo pro-Bush, isn't it ) and then complain that we are just willing to believe anything as long as it supports our ideology?

	05-01-2004 08:52									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Personally, I think it's important to point out that we were lied to... and that Bush is exploiting the Kurdish efforts for his own political gain.

Do you go around telling people that the sky is blue, the atmosphere contains oxygen and the sun rises in the east?

quote: sheep lead by their shepherd.

Don't knock sheep, they have their uses. I had some really good gyros today, and I'm wearing a nice wool sweater to keep warm.

	05-01-2004 08:53									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I thought the Bush administration already lost its last shred of trustworthiness ca. one year ago, when Powell exposed his irrefutable proof of Iraqi wommdies to the UN

Well I am at heart an optimist, so everytime I hear something that comes out of Washington I think, 'this time it has to be true'. Call me a sentimental old bastard if you wish.

	05-01-2004 08:54									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Sava ignorance and apathy...

Comfort and Indifference.

	05-01-2004 08:56									#27
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I'm not touching this one, but I can say that here in news aftew few days of the capture it was said that the kurds did catch Saddam first, and then Americans took if from there on. Personally, I don't give a damn who got him, the main thing is that he's caught. This has no political or any other kind of significance in here, maybe in the US, but not in here so I don't care who's right who's wrong. The objective was accomplished.

	05-01-2004 08:57									#28
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What was the objective again?

	05-01-2004 08:58									#29
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Pekka

	05-01-2004 08:59									#30
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That objective was to catch Saddam. I'm not talking about the number one objectives of the whole war.