06-01-2004 00:09									#1
	AU mod: Philosophy Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

The problem:

The free technology granted by Philosophy in C3C has added a 'no-brainer' decision to technology research: If you have the opportunity to learn Philosophy before all other civilizations, you should always try to do so.

The Republic beeline has become a very strong strategy, and with some planning (and AI incompetence) it's even possible to get a free tech almost 5 times more expensive than Philosophy itself.

The new power of Philosophy has the effect of making hard difficulty levels harder, and easy ones easier. The early-game (where philosophy is available) is not where Sid-level AI needs help. In games where the human is at tech parity with the AI, the human has the advantage because he realizes the value of philosophy.

Possible Solution:

Make Philosophy an optional tech. This would diminish the value of Philosophy, especially when your goal is to reach the Middle Ages as fast as possible. However, skipping Philosophy would not be your best option if you hope to get the Mausoleum of Mausollos and/or into Republic ASAP.

A side effect of making Philosophy optional would be that Feudalism might become useful more often, as you will be able to reach the middle ages sooner and choose Feudalism as your first non-Despotic government when you are still expanding.

If the above change is adopted, the value of Philosophy would also have to be increased in the eyes of the AI to compensate for the loss of value due to being optional.

Do you agree that Philosophy is too strong in C3C? Do you have any other ideas for balancing the power of a free technology? Please share!

	06-01-2004 00:46									#2
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My first thought: Yet another thread about the philosophy of the AU mod?

My first thought on topic: A very interesting idea. So far I don't smell unintended side-effects, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. Don't mark your proposal as 'under consideration' for at least two weeks.

Looking forward to the discussion.

	06-01-2004 01:59									#3
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Interesting idea. I like this one.

	06-01-2004 02:56									#4
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I've somewhat stayed away from commenting on the AU mod so far, but my thought about the philosophy free tech is "I wish they hadn't added it back in". Yes it is a good strategy for the human player...but it is a very one-dimensional strategy. If the "correct" play is to always go on a philosphy beeline then it doesn't make for good strategic decision-making. I'm to the point where in SP games I just ignore philosophy until I'm ready for it, even if I miss out on the free tech. The "correct" play is just too limiting in this instance

I haven't toyed with the editor that much, but a possible solution (if it can be done which I do not know and have not yet checked) is remove the free tech flag.

	06-01-2004 03:23									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Rhothaerill I haven't toyed with the editor that much, but a possible solution (if it can be done which I do not know and have not yet checked) is remove the free tech flag.

Yes, it could be done. But I like alexman's solution better because a) it is closer to (C3C) stock rules and b) it really seems to strengthen the Feudalism government option somewhat. (And I still don't smell any side-effects.)

(BTW, Vanilla Civ3 / PtW stock rules vs. C3C stock rules - I really wonder how nbarclay would comment your suggestion. )

	08-01-2004 06:16									#6
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I'm with Rhothy, in a way... the free tech is just too damn powerful (esp. if SGL generation is possible).

But I don't want to stray too far from stock. I think alexman's suggestion is a very good place to start.

	08-01-2004 18:41									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus I'm with Rhothy, in a way... the free tech is just too damn powerful ....

Free techs are always too powerful (ToE, anyone ).

One problem with making Philosophy an optional tech is that there is the possibility (maybe remote, but...) that my free tech can now be one from the Middle Ages (this is assuming I reach the Middle Ages and no one has researched Philosophy, thus allowing me to grab it first). Is that too powerful?

	08-01-2004 18:45									#8
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Good job thinking of exploits!

But isn't that already possible? What happens if you research Philosophy last in the Ancient Age?

	08-01-2004 18:52									#9
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i don't think that could be a problem. if no AI has researched philosophy, the human surely has!

	08-01-2004 18:55									#10
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What happens if you research philosophy last in the ancient age, and are scientific?

If the free tech is so powerful, why is scientific one of the worst-rated traits? Or is that just because there is generally more than one scientific civ in the world, and the free techs (aside from the middle ages) come when there is already a spread in levels of advancement.

I've never seen a situation yet when philosophy wasn't researched by the AI fairly early on, but we'd have to see how that changed if it was made an optional tech. I suspect people would still go for republic as the free tech though (assuming they had code of laws already), since as a government tech, it is far more valuable to the AI in trade than any of the first-tier medieval techs IIRC.

	08-01-2004 19:02									#11
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quote: Originally posted by vulture If the free tech is so powerful, why is scientific one of the worst-rated traits?

The main reason is because you don't get to choose your free tech as a scientific civ. That's why the game would be so much more balanced if Philosophy and the ToE gave random free techs.

By the way, I don't agree that scientific is one of the worst traits, especially in C3C.

	08-01-2004 19:53									#12
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Alexman: Actually, nor do I - I think the traits are all fairly well balanced, except for the map-dependence of expansionist. Still haven't played with the new traits yet though. But there does seem to be a fairly common opinion around that scientific is one of the weaker ones, which wouldn't happen if the scientific free tech was overpowered.

You may be right that having the tech randomly assigned makes most of the difference though. Not sure I'd like that on the ToE - it just revives memories from vanilla civ3 of getting Music Theory and Free Artistry as the ToE techs

	08-01-2004 20:15									#13
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If you can change it to a random tech, I'd say do that.

That way, if you beeline, you could be risking getting something like bronze working as the freebie. Still not a bad thing, of course, but nothing like getting CoL, or even pulling of Nathan's favorite: republic, having researched CoL prior to Philo.

-Arrian

	08-01-2004 21:35									#14
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quote: A side effect of making Philosophy optional would be that Feudalism might become useful more often, as you will be able to reach the middle ages sooner and choose Feudalism as your first non-Despotic government when you are still expanding.

Would this reinforce the "AIs at higher levels get there first and at lower levels don't have a chance" issue? I'm asking, not being rhetorical.

quote: possible to get a free tech almost 5 times more expensive than Philosophy itself

Maybe there's a solution hidden in the problem... Philo is too cheap and too important.

I say make it optional AND expensive to research - like 150% or more expensive than now. I've got yet another Emp. start (still practicing pumps) where I'm on track to snag Philo again with a less well-developed start, though I do have a settler pump. That just seems wrong.


Or maybe move the free tech to a last-stage tech(optionally last-stage optional - Lit(maybe), Mon, Rep).
The only way to make Mon and Rep not brutally expensive to research is to let the AI get there first - could restore some "strategy" to the who Monarchy vs. Republic issue and restore some variety of choice based on Traits. Or maybe not. I don't like this idea as much as the Optional+Expensive idea, but wanted to throw it out there.

Last suggestion - move the free tech from Philo to Mausollos. So you have to research AND build, so even if the tech is "cheap" compared to the freebie, you still have to make the decision to divert shields into a wonder instead of units/improvements/etc.


One last thought on random vs choosable, not directly ontopic:

quote: the game would be so much more balanced if Philosophy and the ToE gave random free techs

As long as we're getting to participate in the betatesting of the patch and Jesse and crew are making editor changes, I wonder how much trouble it would be for them to make an extra option - one for "Gives Free Choosable Tech" and a separate one for "Give Free Random Tech". Low priority for them, but could possibly do a lot to balance the obvious(albeit level dependent) beelines. Maybe they can even use the same algorithm that Sci civs use for their tech.

	08-01-2004 23:35									#15
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quote: Originally posted by ducki Last suggestion - move the free tech from Philo to Mausollos. So you have to research AND build ...

This is not possible with the current editor.

	09-01-2004 02:59									#16
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I'm going to just quit suggesting thingsif I don't know for a fact you can do them. I'm full of ideas that can't be done.

	09-01-2004 21:02									#17
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The reason Scientific civs' three free techs over the course of the game don't create a serious balance problem is that in order to be Scientific, you have to give up some other trait that also provides major advantages. If you want a real picture of the power of the Scientific trait, imagine a game where one civ was Scientific and the others didn't have any special traits at all.

Personally, I think the idea of providing a free tech for the first civ to research Philosophy was a bad one in terms of game balance, and I'd be happy to see it removed in the AU Mod if the panel so decides. Giving players an incentive to research Philosophy instead of something else was a worthwhile goal, but when the result ends up being that players research something else by researching Philosophy, what's the point? (Interestingly, when I can make my ultra-early Republic trick work, my research path is almost exactly what I tended toward in PtW: CoL, then Philosophy, and then Republic. The only difference is that Republic comes the better part of a millennium quicker after Philosophy.)

Regarding Alexman's proposal, it might possibly affect my research path every couple blue moons or so. I don't see any harm to it, but I don't see much chance of its doing much good either.

Nathan

	09-01-2004 21:22									#18
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Perhaps Philosophy does need to be more expensive, as ducki says.

If the cost of Philosophy were close to that of the more expensive techs of the age, and if it were optional as well, it would definitely affect the research path of anyone not intending to use the Republic as their first government.

What if we change the cost of Monarchy and Philosophy to their current average? That would put each of those techs at the same cost as Currency.

	09-01-2004 22:07									#19
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quote: Originally posted by alexman What if we change the cost of Monarchy and Philosophy to their current average? That would put each of those techs at the same cost as Currency.

Making Philosophy more expensive may be a good second tweak, but why subtract tech costs from Monarchy? I'd rather make Republic somewhat cheaper, as it is in the same research path as Philosophy.

	09-01-2004 22:10									#20
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If Monarchy is much more expensive than Philosophy, players that want Monarchy as their first government would be tempted to research Philosophy instead of Monarchy, and get Monarchy for free.

On the other hand, players that want the Republic as their first governemnt will research philosohy anyway, no matter how expensive it is.

	09-01-2004 22:16									#21
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alexman:
if you're competing for philosophy, how will you manage to get the monarchy required techs before? CB can be traded, mysticism often follows early on. but polytheism is one of the later techs researched by the AI. and if you research it, you'll be losing the race towards philosophy.
do you think this can work?
same question for republic beelining. to get free republic, you'd need to research CoL before philosophy. that's risky too (but not as extreme)


a general question: if philosophy is a optional tech, won't that make the AI research it even later?

	09-01-2004 22:18									#22
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quote: Originally posted by alexman If Monarchy is much more expensive than Philosophy, players that want Monarchy as their first government would be tempted to research Philosophy instead of Monarchy, and get Monarchy for free.

Yes, but isn't this also - and even more - true now?

	09-01-2004 22:26									#23
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Do we try and completely solve the problem, or do we change as little as possible and be satisfied with a slight improvement over stock rules? Classic AU mod dilema.

quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf do you think this can work?

I guess it depends on how close the tech race is with the AI.

quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf a general question: if philosophy is a optional tech, won't that make the AI research it even later?

Not after we're done with influencing the AI research choices!

	09-01-2004 22:30									#24
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Do we try and completely solve the problem, or do we change as little as possible and be satisfied with a slight improvement over stock rules? Classic AU mod dilema.

I'd vote for 'completely solve the problem', but after the discussion in the SoZ thread I'm also sympathetic to a 'one step at a time' approach.

	09-01-2004 22:46									#25
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In the "one step at a time" vein, I suggest increasing Philo to cost the same as a last tier tech, but NOT make it optional.

The reason being, if Philo is optional, then you still end up with folks able to get Republic (almost) one tech early.

On the gamble for Monarchy v. Republic, see my ducki does emperor thread - I was able to beeline Philo(trading Alpha and Writing along the way), trade Philo for the best techs available, Math and Poly, IIRC, leaving me to choose between Construction, Currency, and Monarchy(Republic wasn't even an option due to my priorities) as the "good" options - everything else was researchable in under 20 easily. I took Monarchy, held it for a bit, then traded it around to push into Middle Ages, IIRC.

Anyway, point is, Philo is valuable enough that you can squeeze a lot of value out of it by trading it around before choosing your freebie, which has the added benefit(if you didn't go for Republic) of putting the AIs in position to research that expensive beast and lower the cost for you and freeing you to pick up Construction and Currency while they muddle-about in the Government race.

The more I consider it, the more powerful Philo becomes, especially for the Machiavellians out there. You could probably pretty easily manipulate the AIs in doing the hard(read expensive) work for you consistently. All you have to do is max research straight for Philo(after Pottery, naturally).

I've hit the Philo jackpot on all but one of my Emperor starts. The mere fact that I a)try it every time and b)succeed nearly every attempt shows just how much the AI undervalues this one and how underpriced it is.

I'd also consider a "house rule" or at least a vote on one to the effect of "no trading Philo until you receive your free tech" if making it more expensive as well as attractive to the AI doesn't balance things out a bit.

	09-01-2004 22:57									#26
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quote: Originally posted by ducki if Philo is optional, then you still end up with folks able to get Republic (almost) one tech early.

Can you explain your reasoning here? The Republic requires Philosophy, optional or not...

quote: I'd also consider a "house rule" or at least a vote on one to the effect of "no trading Philo until you receive your free tech" if making it more expensive as well as attractive to the AI doesn't balance things out a bit.

Sorry, I don't follow you here either. How can you trade philosophy before you get the free tech?

	09-01-2004 23:05									#27
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the best solution to the philosophy and the ToE problem would be a completely random free tech. so if you're lucky, you could get republic or construction, if you're really unlucky, you'll end up with a cheap thing.

it works fine for scientific civs when entering a new age, why not here?

if everyone likes the idea, it could be presented to jesse and maybe incorporated in a later patch. waddya think?

	09-01-2004 23:19									#28
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Sorry, I don't follow you here either. How can you trade philosophy before you get the free tech?

From the what-to-research-next popup window, select "What's the big picture" (or whatever it says...) and you go to the tech advisor screen; then switch to the diplomacy screen and you can deal with the AI Civs prior to picking the next tech.

	09-01-2004 23:21									#29
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Can you explain your reasoning here? The Republic requires Philosophy, optional or not...

If Rep requires Philo, then it's not optional, by definition.
(Edit: Ahh, no, clever, clever alex. Rep is also optional. Duh. Interesting. Boy do I feel daft.)
You must have meant unflagging something in the editor. My mistake - I took optional to be literal, like literacy or monarchy or chivalry.

quote: Sorry, I don't follow you here either. How can you trade philosophy before you get the free tech?

When you get the "Our scientists are so cool, check this out" popup, click "What's the big picture", then F4, trade away Philo for the latest-greatest AI stuff, THEN BEFORE leaving the Advisors, go back to F6 and pick the most expensive/attractive tech available.
Viola!
Maybe dodgy to some, maybe not. Definitely needs to be defined as allowable or not if other changes don't fix the power of Philo.

	09-01-2004 23:24									#30
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quote: Originally posted by ducki If Rep requires Philo, then it's not optional, by definition. You must have meant unflagging something in the editor. My mistake - I took optional to be literal, like literacy or monarchy or chivalry.

Republic is an optional tech, so anything leading directly to it can also be optional. Like Printing Press is optional, but leads to Democracy. You don't have to research them to advance to the next Age.