06-01-2004 09:13									#61
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You're all poosies...

	06-01-2004 09:15									#62
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Secret police are distinct from normal police, namely in that they aren't bounded by the civilian justice system. That's why the article is calling them secret police; they can conduct assassinations and the like with impunity.

	06-01-2004 09:17									#63
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Spiff, I agree with you, but please don't jack the thread.

	06-01-2004 09:19									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Spiff, I agree with you, but please don't jack the thread.

Sorry, but I dislike being called an ******* when I'm politely and non-trollingly being skeptical towards the generosity of the US

	06-01-2004 09:20									#65
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I agree with Spiffor,

However, I think you over simplify. We often make nominal sacrifices to help out allies of long standing. There are alot of economic concerns where we could have screwed the friends out of alot of money and resourses to aggrandize ourselves but haven't. Of course all countries do this and there is an intrinsic value in keeping freinds happy, but I think in some cases we can do things for purely humanitarian or other interests. You just declare that a national interest.

I guess the concept is circular

	06-01-2004 09:20									#66
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I still say this "Secret Police" talk is hyperbole. Tracking down and fighting an organized armed insurgency is NOT the role of ordinary policeman. You can't treat it like it's petty street crime. An FBI style institution is nessecary for these type of things. And talking about being agressive in going after the insurgency- yes, and I am sure the FBI back in the day would have said it was agressively persuing the Mafia.


"A normal person would understand that everything implemented by the US has only the interests of the US in mind. When it's good for the Iraqi people, more power to them. When it' bad for them, well, that's too bad."

I agree with you Spiffor. However, what you miss is that the US interest and the Iraqi interest in this case are the same. Helping Iraq recover economically is good for us because it will help us win over more Iraqis and make them more likely to be favorable to the US. Defeating these insurgents who are killing so many innocent iraqis in their attacks is becaue a stable Iraq will be better for a democracy and will make us look better. Making Iraq a sucsessful democracy would be good, as that would accomplish the administration's goal of setting up a model of democracy for the Arab world, and would mean a sucsess for the mission and the Bush administration, and would likely hasten troops coming home.

Conversely, it is in the French interest for the rebuilding of Iraq to fail. If Iraq can't recover, if the guerilla war intensifies, and Sunni Arab Nationalists suceed in setting up a new brutal dictatorship, it would prove the anti-war position that France adopted to be correct, and would likely mean the end of the Bush Doctrine(and administration) and the idea of going into countries and forcibly setting up democracies. It would make the US in the future less likely to act unilaterally. And power being a zero-sum game, the weakening of the superpower(US) and a more multilateral system means in increase in international power for the French.

	06-01-2004 09:32									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi I agree with you Spiffor. However, what you miss is that the US interest and the Iraqi interest in this case are the same. Helping Iraq recover economically is good for us because it will help us win over more Iraqis and make them more likely to be favorable to the US. Defeating these insurgents who are killing so many innocent iraqis in their attacks is becaue a stable Iraq will be better for a democracy and will make us look better. Making Iraq a sucsessful democracy would be good, as that would accomplish the administration's goal of setting up a model of democracy for the Arab world, and would mean a sucsess for the mission and the Bush administration, and would likely hasten troops coming home.

I am not missing it. As a matter of fact, now that the war has been waged, and now that the bloodbath has been spilled, I hope the Americans will meet their Iraqi objectives as easily as possible, i.e. that the guerillas will demoboilize or be crushed in non-populated areas, that the Iraqi economy will be back on line soon, and that a regime respecting the rule of law will be put into place quickly (I do expect the regime to obey to Washington more than to the Iraqis, but I also expect this regime not to breach human rights, which will be a great improvement over Saddam )

However, I'm also aware that the interests of the US may clash with the interests of the Iraqis. In such a case, the US will look for its interests first, like any other country.
This secret police may very well be an American instrument of control over future's Iraq. Or maybe not. In all cases, I don't think it is a good omen to implement a discretionary police under American watch as you try to set up a regime respecting the rule of law.

	06-01-2004 09:32									#68
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I wouldn't say the French want us to fail. They do have a benefit if we do, which would be them looking less politically marginalized worldwide by having proven the superpower wrong (I honestly believe the French are bitter at not bieng one themselves anymore, and take the opposite veiw of the US and other countries sometimes just to be different)

Eddie Izarrd said it best.
Europe - "All of Europe, we are going to do this...
France - "Well......we're not gonna. We are going to eat this sandwinch.

I guess you would have to be there. Anyways, whatever nominal political prestige points they would get would be counter acted by a collapsing Arab world. France is not loved by terrorists either and have had their fair share of blows exchanged.

Frech authorities know Iraq needed dealing with but why do it themselves when we would do it anyways. In the end, we will succeed and France can still say they stood up to us and basque in any benefits from a newly structured Iraq.

In the worst senario people will still regard the French, as well, French. Status quo, and I honestly don't think they care anyways.

	06-01-2004 09:33									#69
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quote: I still say this "Secret Police" talk is hyperbole. Tracking down and fighting an organized armed insurgency is NOT the role of ordinary policeman. You can't treat it like it's petty street crime.

It's not simply counter-insurgency. These militias have started a wave of assassinations, which are substitutes for trials and the rule of law. It isn't hyperbolic to call it a secret police. Alawi, the CIA favorite in the governing council, has been calling for a secret police. And this sure looks like one.

As for whether this is needed, I sure don't think so. It's a recipe for ethnic and religious strife and isolating the Sunnis further into resisting the new Iraqi state.

quote: And talking about being agressive in going after the insurgency- yes, and I am sure the FBI back in the day would have said it was agressively persuing the Mafia.

The phrase was "ruthlessly," not agressively. They have very different connotations.

	06-01-2004 09:41									#70
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I am sure the FBI would have "ruthlessly" attacked the mafia too. Alot of people when trying to make something sound badass, use impressive words. Hell ruthess lawenforcment in America is attacking a 300 pound raging phycotic hyped on crystal meth with a night stick .They actually called that facist. It is all relative.

In Iraq, I want ruthless (the real kind).

	06-01-2004 09:47									#71
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Maybe, but other evidence doesn't point that way.

What makes the militias better for "counter-insurgency" than any other kind of soldier/policeman? The differences I can see are their authonomy and the penchant for extra-judicial killings. And that spells secret police to me. Besides, that's exactly what the CIA wants (look at what Alawi's advocating).

	06-01-2004 20:38									#72
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I thought I was the only one that got the CSPAN channel with the secret CIA stategy breifings.

	06-01-2004 20:46									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Take the Badr Corps, for instance. This militia is lead by real nutjob Ayatollah named Hakim. These forces been extremely friendly with conservative elements in Iran, and in fact has been trained there, and has a history of being extremely violent since the occupation started - including against American forces.

1. Hakim is no nut job.
2, Theyve been more independent of Iran since theyve gained a powerbase inside Iraq, which makes sense when you think about it.
3. They do not have a history of extreme violence since the occupation started.

Hakim and SCIRI are important force among the Iraqi Shia, and are important on the Iraqi Governing Council. The attempt to marginalize them only serves the interests of the Baathists.

	06-01-2004 20:47									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Ramo, the Telegraph and the CSM are of the same family. Marginalized rumor factories and spin doctors.

You are, as usual, FoS. The Christian Science Monitor is one of the most highly respected papers in the country. In the U.S., it is probably the least partisan paper. In fact, you are the only person I've ever heard denigrate the paper.

	06-01-2004 20:48									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker You're implying a secret police is going to abuse its power.

Name one secret police agency in the world which hasn't abused it's ower. I triple-dog-dare you.

	06-01-2004 20:52									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor A normal person would understand that everything implemented by the US has only the interests of the US in mind. When it's good for the Iraqi people, more power to them. When it' bad for them, well, that's too bad.

The principle US interest in Iraq is building up a stable, democratic and prosperous state which by its very existence will serve to undermine certain political and cultural dynamics presents in the region which are inimical to US security. Spiffor is correct to state that the US motive is not altruism. He is incorrect to derive from that the US is not committed to a democratic Iraq. Should we retreat from that commitment, it will not be out of pursuit of our interest, but because we fail to have the will to stick to our interests.

	06-01-2004 20:55									#77
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You are, as usual, FoS. The Christian Science Monitor is one of the most highly respected papers in the country. In the U.S., it is probably the least partisan paper. In fact, you are the only person I've ever heard denigrate the paper.

You must have a narrow circle of associates, CG. The CSM, though it pursues a moderate line on most US politics, pursues a generally pro-Saudi, anti-Israel line on the Mideast - this has been true for years, but has really stood out these last 2 years. They were more solidly against the Iraq war than even the NYTimes.

	06-01-2004 20:55									#78
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark The principle US interest in Iraq is building up a stable, democratic and prosperous state . . .

This is rather presumptive given the modus operandi of the current Administration in Washington. Everything they do is motivated either to enhance their poltiical power or to enrich their crony capitalist masters. If Powell had any say, then maybe I'd agree with you, but he seems to have been completely marginalized.

	06-01-2004 20:56									#79
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I just wanted to chime in with some more support of the CSM. It's a fine paper. As I understand it, the paper has no real connection to the wacky CS church or whatever it's called.

Now, if Che (commie), Berserker (libertarian/anarchist?) and I (moderate USian capitalist pigdog) all agree it's a reliable news source, it's probably true.

As for the thread topic... well, an Iraqi FBI style agency is probably needed, but the use of militias does worry me.

-Arrian

	06-01-2004 20:57									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Maybe, but other evidence doesn't point that way. What makes the militias better for "counter-insurgency" than any other kind of soldier/policeman?

the fact that they arent infiltrated by old regime loyalists claiming to be "reformed" ex-Baathists.

	06-01-2004 20:59									#81
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara This is rather presumptive given the modus operandi of the current Administration in Washington. Everything they do is motivated either to enhance their poltiical power or to enrich their crony capitalist masters. If Powell had any say, then maybe I'd agree with you, but he seems to have been completely marginalized.

Powell is as close to crony capitalists as anyone, and is particularly close to the Saudi lobby. The only idealist is Wolfie.

	06-01-2004 20:59									#82
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark You must have a narrow circle of associates, CG. The CSM, . . . pursues a generally pro-Saudi, anti-Israel line on the Mideast - this has been true for years, but has really stood out these last 2 years.

Given the rather extreme pro-Israeli stance you take, as well as that of most of the U.S. media, you'll fogive me if I take that with a grain of salt. As for the paper being against the war, well, maybe so. I haven't been following it recently.

	06-01-2004 21:00									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I just wanted to chime in with some more support of the CSM. It's a fine paper. As I understand it, the paper has no real connection to the wacky CS church or whatever it's called. Now, if Che (commie), Berserker (libertarian/anarchist?) and I (moderate USian capitalist pigdog) all agree it's a reliable news source, it's probably true. -Arrian

Unfortunately on this particular subject its not true.

	06-01-2004 21:03									#84
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Given the rather extreme pro-Israeli stance you take, as well as that of most of the U.S. media, you'll fogive me if I take that with a grain of salt. As for the paper being against the war, well, maybe so. I haven't been following it recently.

Im generally a Labor supporter, who thinks Israel must withdraw from most of the territories and establish a Pal state. I have been skeptical of Sharon, though I dont think hes a loony or a war criminal, and i think he does have a strong streak of pragmatism. But to the CSM, and to much of the Euro media, that means my stance is EXTREME. So you can take your salt and shove it.

	06-01-2004 21:03									#85
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LotM,

Are we talking about perceived bias, or are we talking about it being a reliable news source? Those can be very different things.

And as Che points out, you have rather extreme pro-Israeli views, so while the CSM sounds neutral or slightly anti-Israel to me, it may sound like a bunch of neonazis to you.

-Arrian

	06-01-2004 21:13									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian LotM, Are we talking about perceived bias, or are we talking about it being a reliable news source? Those can be very different things. And as Che points out, you have rather extreme pro-Israeli views, so while the CSM sounds neutral or slightly anti-Israel to me, it may sound like a bunch of neonazis to you. -Arrian

I have bitterly debated with hawks on Soc.culture.Jewish, where i was considered a dove. Again, I have thought a territorial compromise was a necessity for as long as I can remember. With some trepidation i accepted Oslo, and agreed to the need for a Pal state, even with Arafat at the head of it - i was willing to give him a chance. I cried when Rabin was shot, and cheered when Barak beat Netanyahu. I take a skeptical, though not hostile, view of Sharon. I HAVE taken a more hostile viewpoint of Arafat SINCE he rejected Baraks offer, but only since then. I continue to hope that the Pal people will somehow shake off Arafat. I assure you that among American Jews my views are mainstream (if they are more salient to me than for most) and that in Israel I'd be considered a centrist, if not quite a dove. That I am here considered an
"extremist" is both unfair, and a sign of how biased against Israel the general discourse is.

And no I dont see the CSM as neo-Nazi. I do see them as STRONGLY biased on the middle east, enough so that I take anything in the CSM on that region with a grain of salt, as much so as for the Daily Telegraph. Especially where this plays so strongly on their prejudices, which in the case of Iraq leans towards sympathy with the ex-Baathists and skepticism towards the exiles, and general hostility to the neo-con project.

	06-01-2004 21:15									#87
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BTW if I am a pro-Israel extremist than so is Bill Clinton.

	06-01-2004 21:23									#88
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Ok, "extremist" was too much. At least from where I'm sitting. Your views are not really much different than mine, when it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian bloodbath.

What I really should have said was this: it's all relative. One man's moderate is another's extremist. My moderate views from the USA put me down as a centre-rightist in Europe or Canada. Che's a full blown wacko here, but not so across the pond. And so on and so forth.

I posted to defend the CSM not from you, actually (crosspost), but from Patroklos (sp?), who seems to see it at a conspiracy theory rag, which isn't at all fair.

	06-01-2004 21:33									#89
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Extreme was meant in the sense of strong, not fanatical. I guess that wasn't clear in my post. Sorry.

	06-01-2004 23:49									#90
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Obviously the publications one deems reliable or unbiased depends on where you sit.

Once again, if we were forming a state law enforcment agency out of war torn New Zealand sheep country, perhaps we could find a few groups to include that don't have blood on their hands. However, we are not in New Zealond, we are in Iraq. In order to accomplish something you need to get your hands dirty, there are no sqeaky clean solutions.

But, as usually while poinit out problems the causists have yet to offer a viable alternative. Well, do nothing, but that is only viable to causists.