06-01-2004 23:51									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos But, as usually while poinit out problems the causists have yet to offer a viable alternative. Well, do nothing, but that is only viable to causists.

BS argument. Doing something wrong for the sake of soind something isn't viable either.

	07-01-2004 00:40									#92
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It is not wrong, it is just not all right. In other words, it is any entity of the real world.

Not that the quote you put up has anything to do with your comentary. I am asking for your alternative, if you ever bothered to think of one.

	07-01-2004 06:05									#93
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Name one secret police agency in the world which hasn't abused it's ower. I triple-dog-dare you.

Name one police agency in the world that hasn't abused its power.

	07-01-2004 06:24									#94
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quote: the fact that they arent infiltrated by old regime loyalists claiming to be "reformed" ex-Baathists.

1. An openly Sadrist militiaman is that much better?
2. You're trying to tell me that a few thousand non-Ba'athists (whether they used to be one or not) is so hard to find in Iraq?

And once again, look at who's going to head this thing: Alawi (who just got his man into the Dept. of the Interior). A high-up "reformed" Ba'athist, whose political network includes other "reformed" ex-Ba'athists. The people we're giving power...

quote: But, as usually while poinit out problems the causists have yet to offer a viable alternative. Well, do nothing, but that is only viable to causists.

I'll tell you exactly what I'd do (within what's practical): Stop privatizations, stop enforcing anti-labor laws, distribute reconstruction contracts more equitably to Iraqi businesses (and not just Chalabi's favorites), and do similar measures to remedy the high Iraqi unemployment rate to minimize any sort of support for the militias among the populous. Start training a national pluralistic police force with counter-insurgent tactics. Pressure the militias into giving up their weapons, and try to eat at their political power a la Karzai. Sack most of those crazy exiles who have no political support among the general populace from the IGC, and make it more representative (listen to Sistani et al.). Etc., etc. (I could write pages of suggestions)

And you've never addressed my concerns, despite repeating them a number of times.

	07-01-2004 06:33									#95
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quote: 1. Hakim is no nut job.

Being a hardline Islamist automatically qualifies a person as a nutjob as far as I'm concerned.

quote: 2, Theyve been more independent of Iran since theyve gained a powerbase inside Iraq, which makes sense when you think about it.

They don't have much of a powerbase (which is more than you can say for some of the people we support, granted). But they're still connected to Iran. The Marsh Arabs' militia is also strongly connected to Iran.

quote: 3. They do not have a history of extreme violence since the occupation started.

I may be a little confused, but I recall them participating in riots and the like.

quote: Hakim and SCIRI are important force among the Iraqi Shia, and are important on the Iraqi Governing Council. The attempt to marginalize them only serves the interests of the Baathists.

Not really. Sistani is the major force on Shia street. Sadr and al-Dawa are less important but still fairly significant. SCIRI isn't all that important in comparison. And them being hardline Islamists, it's crazy to support them over folks like Sistani.

	07-01-2004 09:39									#96
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Ramo, your list up there only has goals, I asked for viable solutions.

"Stop privatizations, stop enforcing anti-labor laws, distribute reconstruction contracts more equitably to Iraqi businesses (and not just Chalabi's favorites), and do similar measures to remedy the high Iraqi unemployment rate to minimize any sort of support for the militias among the populous"

Thats nice, but how do you PLAN on attracting any foreign investments and buisness intrests by stopping privitizations. Nationalize everything, becasue buisness love that and countries with nationalized industries are sure sitting on the top of the ecomic world Not that any nationalized economy is competative, but can you tell me any successful economy that STARTED nationalized? Of course unemployment is high because there are no jobs, so your plan is to put restrictions on buisness, but we are going to revitilize the economy right? What good are employee rights when there are no employers to protect them from. You are trying to apply developed Western buisness solutions to a not developed none Western entity. Our modern economies would not have been started if OSHA had existed from the start! That is one of the growing pains of development, and it is niave to think Iraq or anyone will be able to skip over them.

"Start training a national pluralistic police force with counter-insurgent tactics"

With what national pluristic entities, random people off the streets? And who will teach them these brilliant counterinsurgent tactics, since you have disqualified the only locals who know how, which unfortunetly are in the militias, the US military, the CIA and group with any leaning one way or the other?

Your list includes some wonderful ends but I don't think you are prepared to supply the means to get there. That is what a causist does, points at problems but when asked for solutions says "ummmmm.......WORLD PEACE!" Anything worth achieving has a price, the better the higher.

-Pat

	07-01-2004 09:59									#97
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quote: Thats nice, but how do you PLAN on attracting any foreign investments and buisness intrests by stopping privitizations.

The lack of privatizations does not prevent new businesses from starting in Iraq, it just is designed to prevent current ones from being taken over by private entitites. Besides, capital isn't exactly jumping to Iraq with the current instability. Selling off the public sector is hardly a priority at the moment. Unempoyment is extremely high, over 50% in lots of places. The facts are that if many businesses in Iraq are privatized, many of the employees will be laid off, and will starve.

And if that's not enough, a lot of those people will join militantly anti-American groups as a consequence.

quote: Nationalize everything, becasue buisness love that and countries with nationalized industries are sure sitting on the top of the ecomic world

Not privatizing isn't the same thing as nationalizing everything.

quote: Of course unemployment is high because there are no jobs, so your plan is to put restrictions on buisness, but we are going to revitilize the economy right?

I don't believe I mentioned putting "restrictions on businesses." And again, economic efficiency is hardly a priority at the moment, unemployment needs to be addressed.

quote: What good are employee rights when there are no employers to protect them from.

What do you mean there aren't employers? There are many pivate employers and there is the state, which owns much of the economy.

quote: You are trying to apply developed Western buisness solutions to a not developed none Western entity.

What "western businesses solutions?"

The right to organize should hardly be a "Western" solution, it should be there in any economy. Unions and strikes are not only pivotal tools to protect worker welfare, but they promote political stability by developing a civil society independent of ethnic and religious divisions (of which, Iraq has an abundance).

As for not privatizing, that's hardly a "western solution." I wouldn't want to see the majority of a western economy under state control. Iraq is an exceptional situation because of the extremely high unemployment rate.

[qutoe]With what national pluristic entities, random people off the streets? And who will teach them these brilliant counterinsurgent tactics, since you have disqualified the only locals who know how, which unfortunetly are in the militias, the US military, the CIA and group with any leaning one way or the other?[/quote]

I don't believe you have any idea of what you're saying. Once again, I advocated recruiting from the military and police. I don't see how they could possibly know less about counterinsurgency than the militias, and considering that this group is much larger and much more politically reliable, I don't see what the problem is. And I don't believe I expressed an objection to the CIA training them.

quote: Your list includes some wonderful ends but I don't think you are prepared to supply the means to get there. That is what a causist does, points at problems but when asked for solutions says "ummmmm.......WORLD PEACE!" Anything worth achieving has a price, the better the higher.

Sad to say, I think my solutions are much better thought out than Bremer's.

	07-01-2004 10:12									#98
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You have been accusing the CIA s bieng a power hungery corrut group of murders the whole time, though I probobly confused some of what you said with Che's comments.

"from the military and police"

The military and the police do not equal knowing countreinsurgiency. Do your local cops know how to invade a town blow up a weapons cache, and slip away into the night? Nore do most of the miltary or police meet the degree of sainthood you seem to want from recruits. There are no qualified people in Iraq that are not holding hands with one of the powerful groups viaing for control. At least not enough to man the whole thing. The people with these skills have already gotten fed up and are more than likely in the militias or other local protective organizations. You don't man counterinsurgancy organizations with angels.

So go ahead and recruit "other people" if you like, but don't expect too much from the shoe sailsman from Tikrit and the fisherman from Basra.

	07-01-2004 10:22									#99
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quote: You have been accusing the CIA s bieng a power hungery corrut group of murders the whole time, though I probobly confused some of what you said with Che's comments.

Part of the CIA is. But most of the CIA does legitimate things, like tracking down terrorists and militants.

quote: Do your local cops know how to invade a town blow up a weapons cache, and slip away into the night?

I think the army probably has a better idea of how to do that than the militias. And besides, that's what training is for.

quote: he people with these skills have already gotten fed up and are more than likely in the militias or other local protective organizations.

In comparison to the Iraqi army, the militias are small. They primarily consist of exile groups (excluding the Kurdish miliitas).

quote: You don't man counterinsurgancy organizations with angels.

I'm not looking for angels, I'm looking for politically reliable, competent people. And even if the militias can do the job better than the army, I don't think that extra bit of competence is worth the political consequences of isolating the Sunnis and promoting ethnic and religious strife.

	07-01-2004 18:24									#100
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Ther is no Iraq army, it was disbanded.

Theay are currently trying to reestablish it, but with no success.

	07-01-2004 19:52									#101
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Yeah, maybe disbanding it was a bad idea, hmm?

I could see forcing retirement of senior officers, but the rank and file? That was dumb, IMO.

-Arrian

	07-01-2004 19:56									#102
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I agree, if they were worried about rooting out baathists, they could have just put the units in the barracks until they got done investigating them. As it is they still have to investigate them all but now they are not all in one place whereing their military nametags

We did do the same thing to Japan and Germany.

	08-01-2004 00:28									#103
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quote: Ther is no Iraq army, it was disbanded.

That doesn't mean its men all disappeared. They are still around and plentiful.

	08-01-2004 01:31									#104
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yeah, in the militias

	08-01-2004 01:38									#105
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As I said, the militias are relatively small (a few thousand total), and primarily consist of the exile groups or the Kurds - who certainly weren't soldiers. The vast majority of soldiers are not in the militias.

	08-01-2004 02:09									#106
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How big do you think the Iraq Army proper was. The only soldiers that were not pitifully undertrained conscripts were the Republican Guard, that obviously can't be considered for you new agency. Your qualified army people are not there.

	08-01-2004 02:24									#107
	Put an end to popups!

Why do you think the militas aren't "pitifully undertrained" as well? Typically, militias are pretty crappily trained. And once again, that's the entire point of having the CIA train them.

	08-01-2004 02:57									#108
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The CIA is taming them.

	08-01-2004 03:01									#109
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The CIA is taming who? The militias? Since when?

	08-01-2004 03:02									#110
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Above I ment in their attempt to include them in a mainstream government controled entity.

Probobly never because people like you refuse to let them try

	08-01-2004 03:07									#111
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quote: Above I ment in their attempt to include them in a mainstream government controled entity.

Trying to co-opt them isn't the same thing as taming them.

And pardon my disbelief if I doubt that the CIA is capable or willing to "tame" a bunch of hardline ethnic nationalists and Islamists.