07-01-2004 04:01									#1
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Only Paul Molitor and Dennis Eckersley were able to get the 75% of votes needed for the MLB HOF. I really thought that Sandberg would be closer... sigh

2004 Hall of Fame Balloting

Player
Votes
Pct.

Paul Molitor
431
85.18

Dennis Eckersley
421
83.20

Ryne Sandberg
309
61.07

Bruce Sutter
301
59.49

Jim Rice
276
54.54

Andre Dawson
253
50.00

Rich Gossage
206
40.71

Lee Smith
185
36.56

Bert Blyleven
179
35.38

Jack Morris
133
26.28

Steve Garvey
123
24.31

Tommy John
111
21.94

Alan Trammell
70
13.83

Don Mattingly
65
12.85

Dave Concepcion
57
11.26

Dave Parker
53
10.47

Dale Murphy
43
8.50

Keith Hernandez *
22
4.35

Joe Carter *
19
3.75

Fernando Valenzuela *
19
3.75

Dennis Martinez *
16
3.16

Dave Stieb *
7
1.38

Jim Eisenreich *
3
0.59

Jimmy Key *
3
0.59

Doug Drabek *
2
0.40

Kevin Mitchell *
2
0.40

Juan Samuel *
2
0.40

Cecil Fielder *
1
0.20

Randy Myers *
1
0.20

Terry Pendleton *
1
0.20

Danny Darwin *
0
0.00

Bob Tewskbury *
0
0.00

* Dropped from future consideration (failed to receive 5 percent).

	07-01-2004 04:08									#2
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sandberg screwed again!

	07-01-2004 06:39									#3
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But at least he is gaining on the magic 75%. If it had dropped, that would be a bad sign.

	07-01-2004 06:43									#4
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Eckersley

	07-01-2004 06:45									#5
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next year he should get in with dawson, itll be something for the cubs

	07-01-2004 06:45									#6
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He deserved it... only the third reliever (I think) to make it in... He was one of the best. I think Sutter no being in is a shame. I figured Molitor and Eck would make it... but I was kind of hoping that Sandberg and Sutter would have better showings.

	07-01-2004 07:04									#7
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Looking ahead to the next few years:

2005: Wade Boggs debuts on the ballot. I predict Boggs gets elected by the BBWAA, and Ron Santo gets elected by the VC. That way, the title of "player most screwed over by the Hall" passes to either Minnie Minoso or Gil Hodges.
2006: Weak debut class. Sandberg and maybe Sutter would get in at this time.
2007: Um... Cal Ripken, Mark McGwire, and Tony Gwynn.
2008: Tim Raines comes onto the ballot. If there's any justice, he SHOULD get in. Sandberg gets in if he hasn't already, otherwise Sutter.
2009: Roger Clemens, Rickey Henderson if both stay retired.

Oh, and we've also learned that Jim Eisenreich has three relatives in the BBWAA. (Sorry.)

	07-01-2004 07:37									#8
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what about Pete Rose

	07-01-2004 07:47									#9
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I don't know if McGwire will get in. I mean, there was a time when I was sure Rice would get in. But he didn't. Don't know if McGwire will either.

	07-01-2004 07:47									#10
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No Joe Carter?

A crime of the first degree!



Brought to you by the good people at SunMedia, a Quebecor Corporation.

	07-01-2004 07:48									#11
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he didn't play for an American team.

	07-01-2004 10:25									#12
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Sandberg will get in... just not now. They work on their own (percieved) timetables of what year a player is 'deserving' to get in.

Though according to a few 'tests' for HOF'ers created by Bill James, he's below the average HOFer (though well above the average HOFer in the HOF Monitor, which judges how likely not how deserving a player is of making it).

http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sandbry01.shtml

Black Ink: Batting - 14 (159) (Average HOFer ~ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting - 134 (120) (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting - 42.7 (118) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 157.0 (61) (Likely HOFer > 100)


Joe Carter fares worse:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/cartejo01.shtml

Black Ink: Batting - 9 (233) (Average HOFer ~ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting - 103 (200) (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting - 31.2 (248) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 88.5 (169) (Likely HOFer > 100)

	07-01-2004 10:29									#13
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Too bad Cecil Fielder can't be up for it again...he should be in

	07-01-2004 10:35									#14
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Eh... Fielder is a marginal candidate. I wouldn't vote for him in the HOF. His numbers just aren't good enough.

	08-01-2004 00:02									#15
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Sandberg and Dawson will get in. Carter was good, but not good enough for HOF.

Phillies traded Sandberg to Cubs for a bag of chips when he was a minor league prospect

	08-01-2004 00:40									#16
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Yeah... one of the best trades the Cubs ever made... doesn't quite make up for the Lou Brock deal though....

	08-01-2004 00:45									#17
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And the Cubs paid for it (by the baseball Gods) when their owners decided Maddux was too much money .

	08-01-2004 00:49									#18
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And what's even funnier... the Cubs are looking to sign Maddux again (why couldn't they have just kept him in the first place)... they are waiting for the price to come down, but it looks like they have a fair shot at him. It will be great, sign him to a solid contract, and then watch his arm fall off by May

GO CUBS!

	08-01-2004 00:52									#19
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You're all speaking complete gibberish...even the thread title is complete gibberish.

	08-01-2004 00:53									#20
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quote: Originally posted by TCO he (Joe Carter) didn't play for an American team.

He did spend some time on the Cubs. As did many of the nominees this year.

	08-01-2004 00:55									#21
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to the Eck-man... It's like Sam Malone getting in.

	08-01-2004 00:59									#22
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quote: he didn't play for an American team.

Carter was with the Cubs, the Indians and the Padres before he came to Toronto.
What has been done here is ridiculous. Same with Dave Stieb, Jimmy Key and Cecil Fielder. Why are so many former Blue Jays (Fielder was one too, before he went to Japan) so bluntly ignored?

	08-01-2004 01:00									#23
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Well, at least Paul Molitor is in.

	08-01-2004 01:31									#24
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quote: What has been done here is ridiculous. Same with Dave Stieb, Jimmy Key and Cecil Fielder. Why are so many former Blue Jays (Fielder was one too, before he went to Japan) so bluntly ignored?

Carter isn't HOF material. The Jamesian formulas show that and his career averages are: .259/.306/.464 (ie, nothing HOF about it... especially OBP). Yes, he's got 396 HRs and 1445 RBIs, but that don't make you automatic for the HOF by any streach.

Stieb, I agree, has ALWAYS been underrated... even during the 80s. However, he isn't HOF material either. He didn't have long enough a career. He only has 176 Wins and an ERA of 3.44 (though an excellent ERA+ of 122). As for the Jamesian factors:

Black Ink: Pitching - 17 (115) (Average HOFer ~ 40)
Gray Ink: Pitching - 142 (104) (Average HOFer ~ 185)
HOF Standards: Pitching - 27.0 (161) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Pitching - 55.5 (210) (Likely HOFer > 100)

http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/stiebda01.shtml

Key has similar problems. Too short of career, leading to less than 200 wins (186 to be exact). He had a 3.51 ERA (though an ERA+ of 122, exactly like Stieb).

Black Ink: Pitching - 15 (135) (Average HOFer ~ 40)
Gray Ink: Pitching - 96 (208) (Average HOFer ~ 185)
HOF Standards: Pitching - 33.0 (110) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Pitching - 66.0 (168) (Likely HOFer > 100)

http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/keyji01.shtml

Fielder, as I've said, isn't HOF material either. Only 319 HRs, and that was his bread and butter.

---

If it makes you happy, Roberto Alomar is a SURE FIRE Hall of Famer. Especially because of his great defense as well as high batting average and on base percentage through his career.

	08-01-2004 01:56									#25
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Thanks for the site link Imran... great stuff.

	08-01-2004 02:15									#26
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quote: If it makes you happy, Roberto Alomar is a SURE FIRE Hall of Famer. Especially because of his great defense as well as high batting average and on base percentage through his career.

Honestly, I think Carter deserves it much more than him. If you had been a Jays fan in the mid-nineties, you'd understand me. He simply was the best player, his homers and RBIs constantly won games (not to mention the special one pointed out earlier in this thread). No need to mention that Alomar is, and has always been, a great player, and he deserves the HOF, but the dropping of Carter simply is criminal.

	08-01-2004 02:22									#27
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Club Thread!

Let's report to Ming so that he closes this one

	08-01-2004 02:28									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Vlad Antlerkov Oh, and we've also learned that Jim Eisenreich has three relatives in the BBWAA. (Sorry.)

And Juan Samuel has two!

What the hell were they even doing on the ballot. I liked Eisenreich when he played (and he was my mom's favorite Phillie), but HOF? No way.

	08-01-2004 02:33									#29
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quote: Thanks for the site link Imran... great stuff.

Yep... I love that site. It's really good with the stats. I just hope for them integrating Bill James' Win Shares in one of these days . Oh, and if you are feeling generous, I'd recommend donating some cash to those guys. You can even buy space for a message over any player (as long as that space hasn't been taken yet ). That's what keeps it all free.

quote: Honestly, I think Carter deserves it much more than him. If you had been a Jays fan in the mid-nineties, you'd understand me. He simply was the best player, his homers and RBIs constantly won games (not to mention the special one pointed out earlier in this thread). No need to mention that Alomar is, and has always been, a great player, and he deserves the HOF, but the dropping of Carter simply is criminal.

Thos are emotional arguments. You have to look at the stats and you'll see Joe Carter is not HOF material. I gave you his personal stats.

Here are the Jamesian factors:

Black Ink: Batting - 9 (233) (Average HOFer ~ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting - 103 (200) (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting - 31.2 (248) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 88.5 (169) (Likely HOFer > 100)

Black Ink measureing times on TOP of the leaderboard
Grey Ink measureing tims in Top 10 of the leaderboard
HOF Standards measuring how deserving a player is of getting in, based on stats.
HOF Monitor measuring how likely a player is of getting in, based on sexy stats (like 50+ HRs) and awards.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/cartejo01.shtml

Also, the players most similar to Carter (with 1000 being perfect match):

Dale Murphy (901)
Andres Galarraga (884)
Don Baylor (864)
Jim Rice (864)
Orlando Cepeda (861) *
Gary Gaetti (860)
Chili Davis (857)
Ruben Sierra (844)
Willie Stargell (837) *
Lee May (836)

* = HOFer

Rice probably deserves to be in the HOF as well. But only 3 of his Top 10 will be HOFers. Murphy, who is most similar to him is overrated because of a few amazing years and then he fell off the table.

Add to that that he was only a 5 time all-star, never led the league in HRs, only led the league once in RBIs, only finished in the Top 5 in MVP voting twice in his career, and you have a player NOT HOF worthy.

	08-01-2004 02:45									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker what about Pete Rose

I would bet that he wont because of his "Gambling" and "Lifetime Ban"..
Oh Wait..I mean when i said "Bet" please dont take it that I was in anyway "placing" a "bet" whilst

Grand..PA TROLL ing around the forums, because i wouldnt want to not be voted in either...

But seriously, he would deserve it if soley on talent, but this vote includes character and well, he IS quite a character..

I say a definite No to pete Rose, and I grew up watching him play and think he is a great ballplayer just he blew it with the sideshow