08-01-2004 00:52									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion chegitz, what do you as a Bush basher say about the situation of the working class?

We're 3 million jobs down, and there are some indications that growth this year will not be as robust as we had hoped. Christmas sales weren't that great, and new manufacturing and housing starts are down. I'm winging his from memory, so I fully expect JohnT to come in here and flatten my ass with statistics, as he is want to do.

	08-01-2004 00:56									#32
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Well, if you want evidence, just read Krugmans stuff- people can fault him for being partisan, but not for lying about what economic reports have been, and he does have some legitimcay in then annalyzing these reports.

	08-01-2004 00:56									#33
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To be honest, I dont know much about the particular platforms of the various dem candidates. Every time I try to listen to one of their debates, their little weasily politician faces and glib comments put me to sleep (and I regularly watch C-SPAN, I've even listened to Sen Byrd).

Dean is gonna be the dem candidate with Gerphardt or Clark, and it'll be a lot closer than I would like but I cant see Dean beating Bush on the day. National security is the main issue and many many polls have shown the same thing. Americans trust dems less about national security issues than they do repubs. Well no kidding!

	08-01-2004 01:04									#34
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Dean is gonna be the dem candidate with Gerphardt or Clark, and it'll be a lot closer than I would like but I cant see Dean beating Bush on the day. National security is the main issue and many many polls have shown the same thing. Americans trust dems less about national security issues than they do repubs. Well no kidding!

And what exactly makes republican better in national defense? that they put more money into fancy military procurement programs? Too bad they cut benefits to troops and veterans while doing it. That they are more eager to send people into war? IN the last 100 years it has been Dems using the military the most.

Republicans have brilliantlybuilt the notion that they are the party of national defense, even though now, after Dole left, almost none of their party leaders (McCain isn't a party leader) ever had any military experience, which is a difference with the Dems. As I said, the republicans get away with murder, like questioning the patriotism of a man who lost 3 limbs serving this country.

	08-01-2004 01:27									#35
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quote: Originally posted by GePap And what exactly makes republican better in national defense? that they put more money into fancy military procurement programs? Too bad they cut benefits to troops and veterans while doing it. That they are more eager to send people into war? IN the last 100 years it has been Dems using the military the most. Republicans have brilliantlybuilt the notion that they are the party of national defense, even though now, after Dole left, almost none of their party leaders (McCain isn't a party leader) ever had any military experience, which is a difference with the Dems. As I said, the republicans get away with murder, like questioning the patriotism of a man who lost 3 limbs serving this country.

Whether someone served in the military or not is not really a qualifier for commander in chief. It may help, but its not vital.

Voters dont care about the last hundred years. Its a question of perception, dems are seen as the wishy-washy peacenik crowd (Clinton, Carter) and repubs (Bush, Bush, Reagan, Ford, Nixon) as the hawks.

What does losing limbs in war have to do with patriotism?

	08-01-2004 01:29									#36
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Yeah -- Franklin D. Roosevelt sure was a wuss once we went to war against Japan and Germany, huh???


Not to mention that Lyndon Johnson continued the Vietnam War -- which worsened the crisis, but this was not an action of a wuss.

	08-01-2004 01:38									#37
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the fact that it is probably one of the greatest ironies in post war USA that it should have been democrats who started both vietnam and korea dosn't make any difference to what was said - it is about PERCEPTION.

	08-01-2004 01:39									#38
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Hmmm, some might say that FDR knew about Pearl Harbor in advance but let it happen so he could take political advantage to push his own agenda.
Hmmm, never mind, since some might say the same about GB. and I wouldn't want that to happen.

	08-01-2004 01:46									#39
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Whether someone served in the military or not is not really a qualifier for commander in chief. It may help, but its not vital.

I agree..so why do so many conservatives question the ability of non military types to make certain decisions?

quote: Voters dont care about the last hundred years. Its a question of perception, dems are seen as the wishy-washy peacenik crowd (Clinton, Carter) and repubs (Bush, Bush, Reagan, Ford, Nixon) as the hawks.

What about Johnson? he was more of a hawk than any of those guys. Add to this the fact that being a hawk does not mean you are better when it comes to international affairs or promoting our security? After all, it was Nixon that got out of Vietnam..why didn;t he stay till victory?

quote: What does losing limbs in war have to do with patriotism?

He was also decorated for his actions- i guess, what does dying for your contry have to do with service? And how do you measure patriotism? By what you say, or what you do?

	08-01-2004 01:46									#40
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Its a question of perception, dems are seen as the wishy-washy peacenik crowd (Clinton, Carter) and repubs (Bush, Bush, Reagan, Ford, Nixon) as the hawks.

Actually, I think it has more to do with the fact that the Dem's won't even defend themselves from Republican partisanship or attack them back. If you won't defend yourself, why would I trust you to defend me?

	08-01-2004 01:47									#41
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quote: You forget that the republicans hammered Max Cleland, a guy who lost three limbs fighting for ther US as weak on defense

I'm still trying to figure out how losing three limbs fighting in Vietnam automatically shields you from criticism on defense issue.

I saw nothing wrong with the ad campaign, and unlike you, I was in the middle of it.

	08-01-2004 01:51									#42
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How can you possibly not equate military experiance to the Commander and Chief function. It isn't a guarantee but pior experiance in any job is what employers always look for

Not that Commander and Chief is the only job function, so being in the military does not equal good presidency if you can only function in that area, but look at it as one of the desireable traits.

	08-01-2004 01:52									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I'm still trying to figure out how losing three limbs fighting in Vietnam automatically shields you from criticism on defense issue. I saw nothing wrong with the ad campaign, and unlike you, I was in the middle of it.

But you were such an non-interested party...

The man's patriotism was questioned, which is different from one's stands on specific defense issues, which they also questioned. I am outraged at number 1.

But then, of course, the questioning of his policies were based on some false claims being made by the WH about the threat from Iraq to the US..so we come back full circle- men like Cleland could be called weak on defense for not kowtowing to the Bushies and their claims of imminent danger form Iraq, which at least till right now are utterly unsubstantiated.

	08-01-2004 01:53									#44
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GePap

"That they are more eager to send people into war?"

"IN the last 100 years it has been Dems using the military the most."

Which one is it?

	08-01-2004 01:59									#45
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The wonders of the double post abound!

Last edited by GePap on 08-01-2004 at 02:07

	08-01-2004 02:05									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos GePap "That they are more eager to send people into war?" "IN the last 100 years it has been Dems using the military the most." Which one is it?

Its the same- supposely Republicans are better on defense becuase they are "hawks", willing to go to war in the name of national interest..but then look who was president at the time American soldiers were on the field and dying, and this century, the president has ususally been a dmeocrat, even when Republicans have held the WH longer. So by the actual measures people seem to use to guess who is better for national defense, the dems come ahead.

	08-01-2004 02:09									#47
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The only Democrat who can beat Bush is Clark.

	08-01-2004 02:23									#48
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quote: Originally posted by rah Hmmm, some might say that FDR knew about Pearl Harbor in advance but let it happen so he could take political advantage to push his own agenda. Hmmm, never mind, since some might say the same about GB. and I wouldn't want that to happen.

NEWFLASH -- those who blame FDR for Pearl Harbor are just as loony as those who blame GB for 9/11.

So ya don't have me in that corner.

	08-01-2004 02:34									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The only Democrat who can beat Bush is Clark.

Maybe, maybe not. Dean gets people pretty excited, and a lot of folks respond to him. Heck, the more the Dem's attack him, the more popular he eems to get.

	08-01-2004 02:50									#50
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Che, to win, the Dems need some of the Southern states. Clark is from the South and is also a general. That alone will get him three or four states, including Arkansas, Tennessee and Florida. That should tip the election to Clark.

Dean has no hope whatsoever in the South.

	08-01-2004 02:53									#51
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I agree..so why do so many conservatives question the ability of non military types to make certain decisions?

I dont know.

quote: What about Johnson? he was more of a hawk than any of those guys. Add to this the fact that being a hawk does not mean you are better when it comes to international affairs or promoting our security? After all, it was Nixon that got out of Vietnam..why didn;t he stay till victory?

I wouldnt call Johnson a Hawk. He continued a war he didnt start and didnt have the balls to get out of. The strain of carrying on with something he disagreed with ended him.

quote: He was also decorated for his actions- i guess, what does dying for your contry have to do with service? And how do you measure patriotism? By what you say, or what you do?

Men and women who served America in Vietnam did just that. Most were drafted and their service had very little to do with patriotism. I dont know exactly what was said so I'm in no position to judge the validity of the comments. I dont agree, though, that being drafted or being wounded makes you a patriot.

	08-01-2004 02:53									#52
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Um -- isn't there another Democratic candidate from the South?

The Senator of South Carolina -- damn it, what's his name again??

	08-01-2004 02:58									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos How can you possibly not equate military experiance to the Commander and Chief function. It isn't a guarantee but pior experiance in any job is what employers always look for Not that Commander and Chief is the only job function, so being in the military does not equal good presidency if you can only function in that area, but look at it as one of the desireable traits.

Just how would one get job experience for commander in chief of the US armed forces? Perhaps a lesser job first such as commander in chief of the Canadian forces.

No one would say that being a private in an inf company gives you experience to command even a battalion. So why think it's experience to command an army?

I'm not saying its worthless, just not as important as being able to make good decisions. Reagan didnt fight any wars but he made good decisions.

	08-01-2004 03:03									#54
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There are three candidates from the South, Clark, Edwards, and Gephart. Plus there are a couple of senators from Florida on Dean's short list for Veep.

	08-01-2004 03:03									#55
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John Edwards -- that's who he is. He's another Democratic candidate of the South.

	08-01-2004 03:10									#56
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BTW, John Edwards represents North Carolina.

	08-01-2004 03:11									#57
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Who's in Dean's short list for Veep?

	08-01-2004 03:28									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Che, to win, the Dems need some of the Southern states.... Dean has no hope whatsoever in the South.

I don't know why people keep saying this. Gore didn't win a single Southern state in 2000 (unless you count New Mexico), and yet if he had been able to hold on to West Virginia or New Hampshire, longtime Dem strongholds, he'd be running for reelection this year.

The Dems don't need the South. If they could steal a state or two, great, but they can win the election without a single state south of the Mason-Dixon Line.



Moreover, regarding Max Cleland, the Democrat gentlemen who had three limbs blown off in Vietnam, the Republicans ran ads against him showing pictures of him with Osama & Saddam in the background. That is simply beyond the boundaries of good taste, even in politics.

	08-01-2004 03:34									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Who's in Dean's short list for Veep?

Bill Nelson for sure. I think Bob Grahm is as well. There are unconfirmed reports that Dean has asked Clark as well (Clark people deny it).

	08-01-2004 03:47									#60
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara BTW, John Edwards represents North Carolina.

Thanks for the correction.