07-01-2004 23:43									#1
	It does not matter if Iraq has or had WOMD's or not at this point Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

People who are pro bush will scream about how it dosent matter we freed Iraq ETC while ignoring all other issues.

People like me who see Bush as the epitome of a corrupt corporate america ruling out country/goverment, even if they are found will say it is unimportant because of the web of lies around the whole thing, some will say any WOMD's found were planted.


Does it matter? Someone explain why.

	07-01-2004 23:48									#2
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I don't think it will matter because of issue fatigue. . . . unless they find some.

	07-01-2004 23:50									#3
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Clinton got impeached for lieing about an affair he had.

Bush is applauded for lieing about Iraq's WoMDs and the reason to go to war.

	07-01-2004 23:50									#4
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finding WOMD's wont effect anyone except the unwashed mass who dosent know "the issues" and dosent vote anyway because they want to watch "Temptation who wants to be a Joe Average Island".

	07-01-2004 23:53									#5
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Many analysts expect a much larger turn out this year. I wouldn't discount the unwashed masses.

	07-01-2004 23:55									#6
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Dems handing out soap again at the poling centers?

	07-01-2004 23:58									#7
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to conservatives, nothing is too immoral if it satisfies their own ends...

giving Saddam chemical weapons in order to kill the Kurds and Iranians is okay... because Saddam was our friend!

	07-01-2004 23:59									#8
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Many analysts expect a much larger turn out this year. I wouldn't discount the unwashed masses.

If Bush wins again, well I might as well move to Israel because A. our economy will be worse then theirs, and B. it will be moderatly safer-my two reasons for staying in the states.

I'd vote for Al Sharpton over Bush.

	08-01-2004 00:03									#9
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quote: If Bush wins again, well I might as well move to Israel because A

Better pack your suitcase then cuz if Dean gets the nomination the Dems are toast.

No way is Dean going to be able to project credibility when it comes to national/homeland security or foreign policy.

	08-01-2004 00:03									#10
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I think that the Iraqi's don't care, they are just pleased to be rid of SH, so imo they don't matter, and it was only a desperate Blair who made them matter anyway.

	08-01-2004 00:05									#11
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Someone tell that anecdote again how many little educated Americans will vote for Bush because TV tells them that "the economy is good" although they have less money left themselves.

	08-01-2004 00:10									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Jac de Molay No way is Dean going to be able to project credibility when it comes to national/homeland security or foreign policy.

And of course, compare the immense and deep knowledge of foreign policy this president came into the WH with.. I mean, the man was a FP wonk if we ever knew one!

Nope, only people who come in with deep FP experience can ever claim to be good at it..no way novices improve, none at all....

As for WMD's: politically speaking, it won't affect Bush one bit if none are ever found: the Admin. has own the battle to frame the issue as one in which they can only win: if none are ever found, who cares, and if some are found, then they get to say they were right all along. Long term of course, it will tarnish the Bush record becuase the admin. did lie as part of their drive to war.

And of course, the original sin of basing the war as a necessary attack vs immidiate threat, and all the half-asses steps taken in the ldeain becuase of that have contributed greatly to the messy aftermath.

	08-01-2004 00:20									#13
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quote: Originally posted by GePap And of course, compare the immense and deep knowledge of foreign policy this president came into the WH with.. I mean, the man was a FP wonk if we ever knew one! Nope, only people who come in with deep FP experience can ever claim to be good at it..no way novices improve, none at all....

Im sorry, but I just wanted to know how many horrific terrorist attacks that Dean has presided over?

Bush has the ultimate advantage of a trial by fire no matter how much of a drunken, overgrown frat boy he was before taking office. Add to that the traditional 10 to 20 point spread the Repugs have enjoyed concerning matters of national security, and if they don't add Kerry or Clark to that ticket they are DONE. Bush knows it and they are going to hammer it home every chance they get.

As for the WMDs, Bush and cabal will manage to weasel out of their lies somehow, contingent upon the economy and the state of Iraq next fall. He sold the lie, but like little sheep people will buy it if there's progress.
Just more bad history repeating itself

	08-01-2004 00:20									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion Someone tell that anecdote again how many little educated Americans will vote for Bush because TV tells them that "the economy is good" although they have less money left themselves.

less of a percentage of poor and lower class people actually vote... most of that propaganda about "OOIH THE ECONOMY IS GREAT" is for ignorant middle class who don't see poverty in their daily lives.

	08-01-2004 00:21									#15
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is that why all of you vote Bush?

	08-01-2004 00:25									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion Someone tell that anecdote again how many little educated Americans will vote for Bush because TV tells them that "the economy is good" although they have less money left themselves.

More like
Someone tell the anecdote again about how many educated Americans will vote for Bush again because they are much better off economically than they were 4 years ago and are now being taxed less on top of it.

Thanks GB.
Better investment income.
Better work income.
More job security.
Less taxes.

	08-01-2004 00:27									#17
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for you maybe. what about the working class?

	08-01-2004 00:30									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Jac de Molay He sold the lie, but like little sheep people will buy it if there's progress. Just more bad history repeating itself

On the up side, if this continues we get to invade France soon!

	08-01-2004 00:30									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion is that why all of you vote Bush?

I'm not about to dissect the motives of EVERY SINGLe Bush voter... I can make a few generalizations, but it hardly is a valid explanation...

for some people, they think bush is a strong leader to fight terror, even though he was asleep at the wheel and his incompetence allowed 9-11 to happen..

some people vote for him because they agree so much with authoritarian social views (i.e. gays are bad, abortion is bad, white men should rule the world)

some are probably staunch free-marketer fundies who are too dumb to realize that laisze faire doesn't work...

some just get fooled by the corporate media's spinning and propaganda..

who knows? I have some working knowledge about Bush voters because I live in a very Repuke-strong county... I talk politics to lots of people, and these conclusions I have are based upon that experience and my experience in listening to people online...

I could dissect Demoncrat voters, too... since I'm often accused of being a Democrat, I can effectively say people vote for Dem's because:

1. they simply hate repukes and think the Dem's will do things differently, when in reality, the two parties are so much alike, it's scary

2. they think Dem's stand up for minorities and the poor... some do, but most Democrat establishments simply pander to that segment of the population the same way Repukes pander to the religious right

3. they too fall for the dem propaganda

4. like me, lesser of the two evils

I'm in #4... I don't particularly like Dem's, but they are less evil. The two party system is complete crap. We need a radical change in the way we view politics in this country, or else it will be business as usual.

	08-01-2004 00:31									#20
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Dean is promising to reform the tax code to stop $*!$'ing over the poor and middle class, if this was played up by the media he would win in a land slide.

	08-01-2004 00:33									#21
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quote: Originally posted by rah More like Someone tell the anecdote again about how many educated Americans will vote for Bush again because they are much better off economically than they were 4 years ago and are now being taxed less on top of it. Thanks GB. Better investment income. Better work income. More job security. Less taxes.

You're disgusting!

	08-01-2004 00:35									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Dems handing out soap again at the poling centers?

Both parties expect to benefit.

	08-01-2004 00:35									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion for you maybe. what about the working class?

People vote their own interests. Not anybody elses.
And last time I checked, I was part of the working class.

Some of my friends haven't profited but more than half have. With all the retoric out there, it is usually immaterial because people vote based on their perception of how they've done the last four years. I don't expect that to change.

	08-01-2004 00:35									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Jac de Molay Im sorry, but I just wanted to know how many horrific terrorist attacks that Dean has presided over?

As many as Bush before he became president. And for some reason most American think he did well.

quote: Bush has the ultimate advantage of a trial by fire no matter how much of a drunken, overgrown frat boy he was before taking office. Add to that the traditional 10 to 20 point spread the Repugs have enjoyed concerning matters of national security, and if they don't add Kerry or Clark to that ticket they are DONE. Bush knows it and they are going to hammer it home every chance they get.

You forget that the republicans hammered Max Cleland, a guy who lost three limbs fighting for ther US as weak on defense and patriotism- the Dems. could nominate Eisenhower and the republicans would still attack viciously. Bush's record in FP is mixed at best, and ditto for security. And then there are domestic issues, so NO< it is not critical for the dems to place a guy on the ticket solely for FP reasons. You can always have Clarck as a VP candidate.

	08-01-2004 00:37									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Jac de Molay Better pack your suitcase then cuz if Dean gets the nomination the Dems are toast.

This from the same pundits who said Dean could never win the nomination in the first place. This from the same pundits who said Clinton never stood a chance. This from the same pundits who said Bush was a shoe-in in 2000. As Dean's front-runner status is solidified, his numbers in a Bush-Dean contest poll go up.

	08-01-2004 00:39									#26
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BTW, the tax-cuts aren't going to help Bush as much as he'd like to think. Many of us are going to get whacked by the alternative-minimum tax, and save little to nothing on our taxes. Only the fortunate few on top will see any tax savings.

	08-01-2004 00:41									#27
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quote: Originally posted by rah More like Someone tell the anecdote again about how many educated Americans will vote for Bush again because they are much better off economically than they were 4 years ago and are now being taxed less on top of it.

Well, except that property taxes and other state and local taxes went up (probably undoing all those Fed cuts), plus other out of pocket costs have gone up, like college tuition, with less Fed aid being given out and state schools going up significantly. As for incomes going up- well, wages aren't up.

quote: More job security.

Since before he took office? I find that amazing.

	08-01-2004 00:41									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen Dean is promising to reform the tax code to stop $*!$'ing over the poor and middle class, if this was played up by the media he would win in a land slide.

I agree... media influence plays a huge part...

the media hates Dean because he wants to limit corporage power and ownership... that's why I like Dean best. I usually support the candidate that corporate moguls hate the most.

I'll settle for Clark because he can knock Bush out in a contest between patriotism and foreign policy.

All the other candidates, I doubt I'd even vote for.

Sharpton (funny, a real progressive... but no chance to win)

Kucinich (the whole new age thing scares me... I don't like the retreatist Iraq policy... progressive... but again, no shot)

Kerry, Lieberman, Gephardt (slimy Washingtonian Demoncrats... might as well haev Bush than Bush-lite)

Edwards (less of Bush lite... very good domestic agenda... best looking candidate I might vote for him if he won the nom.)

Mosley-Braun (a real loser... couldn't even win re-election for her Senate seat in the Democratic powerhouse in Illinois)

I have suspicions about how sincere Dean is about progressive politics, but he doesn't seem politically savvy enough to be a phony. I like to see a guy make political blunders like he has. His so called "double talk" and "back stepping" is media propaganda mischaracterizing his lack of skill in being completely clear.

I think teh Dem's will nominate either CLark or Dean... I'd rather see Clark because of foreign policy... but Dean would be the best thing for America (if he's sincere).

	08-01-2004 00:47									#29
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chegitz, what do you as a Bush basher say about the situation of the working class?

	08-01-2004 00:48									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I agree... media influence plays a huge part... the media hates Dean because he wants to limit corporage power and ownership... that's why I like Dean best. I usually support the candidate that corporate moguls hate the most.

Anyone who will ***** $*!@ corporate America is my hero.

"But screwing with industry will hurt the American economy and loose us jobs!"

Since these global corporations outsource half their work outside the country anyway we loose nothing.