08-01-2004 04:33									#61
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I live in san jose, with a 7 percent unemployment rate and I would say the lower class, working class, and higher are doing beter. Those on unemployment benefits are still buying their SUVs also...

	08-01-2004 04:54									#62
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I'll repeat what I've always said: it never mattered. How was Saddam supposed to use them against us if he had them?

On a related note, is there any historical precedent for America, or any country, liberating a nation with no common, unified identity from a dictator, then successfully turning it into a democracy overnight? In fact, can anyone think of an example where instant democracy worked in ANY country? All that comes to mind for me is the puppet we propped up in Germany after WWI, and those little post-soviet nuggets in eastern Europe...which is why I'm inclined to question this administration's sanity. Do any of the history buffs on Poly have good news for me?

	08-01-2004 05:01									#63
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The thing people seem to be forgetting in this is that in the debate over who will win the election, it doesn't matter whether or not the choice makes sense from the perspective of choosing a good president (I'm not even going to get into a debate on who has the better policy) - all that matters is what people THINK. And one thing everyone here should have figured out by now is that most people aren't rational...

quote: In fact, can anyone think of an example where instant democracy worked in ANY country? All that comes to mind for me is the puppet we propped up in Germany after WWI, and those little post-soviet nuggets in eastern Europe...

Japan and Germany after WWII, maybe?

	08-01-2004 05:53									#64
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quote: Originally posted by sprucemoose3311 Those on unemployment benefits are still buying their SUVs also...

Credit abuse allows people to buy things that they cannot really afford so they slide further into debt because of their stupid consumption habits that are based on gratification.


So no -- buying such things as SUVS, fur coats, jewelry, and so on is not a sign of healthy economy -- it's a sign of stupid consumption habits based on gratification -- not caring if you can afford what you're buying on credit.

	08-01-2004 06:13									#65
	what apt examples Put an end to popups!

Fur coats and Jewlery AAAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA

	08-01-2004 06:37									#66
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker quote: In fact, can anyone think of an example where instant democracy worked in ANY country? All that comes to mind for me is the puppet we propped up in Germany after WWI, and those little post-soviet nuggets in eastern Europe... Japan and Germany after WWII, maybe?

Germany had as long an experience with parlimentary democracy as France. The Kaisar's powers were subject to limitation by the Parliament.

Japan, IIRC, was a constitutional monarchy before the generals took control in the (1920s?).

	08-01-2004 06:55									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I'm in #4... I don't particularly like Dem's, but they are less evil. The two party system is complete crap. We need a radical change in the way we view politics in this country, or else it will be business as usual.

You are absolutely right, I still can't believe you think you're having a democracy there.
You only have 2 noteworthy parties (that are both rightwing in my eyes, although the democrats are still way better of coz); Your president has pretty much all the power, and the winner is chosen not because of his qualities but thanks to the media and the obligatory hugely expensive campaigns. I mean don't tell me Bush had done any noteworthy political deed in his entire life before he became president. Heh actually he was a total failure till he converted to strict christianity again.
PS: the opposition in the US is of no importance either, which is rather strange as here with us they still have a lot of influence

A government with a coalition is a whole lot safer in my eyes!

	08-01-2004 20:23									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Elok On a related note, is there any historical precedent for America, or any country, liberating a nation with no common, unified identity from a dictator, then successfully turning it into a democracy overnight? In fact, can anyone think of an example where instant democracy worked in ANY country? All that comes to mind for me is the puppet we propped up in Germany after WWI, and those little post-soviet nuggets in eastern Europe...which is why I'm inclined to question this administration's sanity. Do any of the history buffs on Poly have good news for me?

No. Sorry. My fear is that the Bush amdin. is the wrong admin. to try such an experiment. And I whish this would become Dean's Iraq line: how can an admin. who fails to understand democracy at home build it anywhere else?

	08-01-2004 20:44									#69
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Yeah, I talked to my dad last night, and he mentioned WWII recovery too. I suppose that is in some ways a valid exception, but I guess my point is/was/should be that a society has to grow to a certain extent before it is ready to become a democracy. Iraq is a cluster of alienated peoples who hate and distrust each other with a passion. So is America, of course, but we're more civil about it. We had a democratic tradition stretching back before we were even independent. I don't know that they even want one over there. I also don't know that they know what they DO want, as a matter of fact. Been a long time since anyone's asked them, after all.

	08-01-2004 21:08									#70
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quote: Originally posted by rah More like Someone tell the anecdote again about how many educated Americans will vote for Bush again because they are much better off economically than they were 4 years ago and are now being taxed less on top of it. Thanks GB. Better investment income. Better work income. More job security. Less taxes.

What country are you living in?

Since GW came to office:

Investment income has been down, or flat at best. The total stock market is still down about 2.5% since he came to office, even though the gains last year were impressive. Dividends have been lower than in the 90s.

Work income has been flat - most companies have stopped giving any sort of raises, claiming poverty. Personally, I was getting raises near 10% of my salary before Bush came to power. Now I'm lucky if my raise matches the cost-of-living.

Job security? The unemployment rate was close to 4% when Clinton left office. It is currently at 5.9% (as of Nov 2003). Sounds higher to me. From personal experience, I know several people who have lost jobs in the last three years and either continue to be unemployed or have been forced to take lower paying jobs. These are skilled people, too, that should command decent wages.

As for less taxes, yes, on a Federal level. Meanwhile state and local taxes are being increased to compensate for less Federal funding of local programs. Great - give with one hand and take with the other.

Wow, thanks GW.

	08-01-2004 22:05									#71
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Germany had as long an experience with parlimentary democracy as France. The Kaisar's powers were subject to limitation by the Parliament. Japan, IIRC, was a constitutional monarchy before the generals took control in the (1920s?).

Long parliamentary democracy in Germany?


Other historians would beg to differ, by arguing that the Junker class and and the monarchs of Prussia, all the way up to the mid 19th century, established a long tradition of authoritarian rule.

Not until the liberalization of government rule in the late 19th century, did any real kind of parlimentary democracy emerge. So I think the words, "long tradition" are problematic to say the least.

	08-01-2004 23:22									#72
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And it wasn't until the late-19th century that parliamentary democracy was firmly established in France (Louis Napoleon for instance had abolished the legislative assembly altogether).

	09-01-2004 00:00									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Stuie What country are you living in?

THE US of A

I was speaking of personal experience. I think I know more about my personal experiences than you do.

If you had read the whole thread you might have seen that I was discussing personal experience, but I know you don't let those kind of details get in your way when you have a particular horse to beat.

	09-01-2004 00:17									#74
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Yes it matters. Because, if they have them, well.. there are unaccounted WMDs not in our radar. WHat's going to happen to them? What if some rogue element rises its head in Iraq some years from now? What if someone decides to sell the WMD to terrorists? It matters very much if there is WMD and if we are to find them.

	09-01-2004 00:20									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Elok I'll repeat what I've always said: it never mattered. How was Saddam supposed to use them against us if he had them? On a related note, is there any historical precedent for America, or any country, liberating a nation with no common, unified identity from a dictator, then successfully turning it into a democracy overnight? In fact, can anyone think of an example where instant democracy worked in ANY country? All that comes to mind for me is the puppet we propped up in Germany after WWI, and those little post-soviet nuggets in eastern Europe...which is why I'm inclined to question this administration's sanity. Do any of the history buffs on Poly have good news for me?

This is the kind of thinking that caused me to think that leaving Saddam in power was the right thing to do in 1991.

My views changed on this after 9/11.

	09-01-2004 01:03									#76
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quote: Originally posted by rah THE US of A I was speaking of personal experience.....

That's funny. Most of my response was personal experience as well.

Oh, well. Glad you found the silver lining.

	09-01-2004 01:25									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Ned This is the kind of thinking that caused me to think that leaving Saddam in power was the right thing to do in 1991. My views changed on this after 9/11.

Why? What did Hussein have to do with 9/11? That's right, absolutley nothing. No terrorist attack launched against Americans has evern been aided, abetted, or sponsored by Iraq, nuless you wnat to include th phoney attempt against Bush's life that the Kuwaitis invented.

	09-01-2004 01:27									#78
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Don't mind Ned. In his fantasy world, Saddam had been in bed with al-Qaeda.

	09-01-2004 01:42									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Stuie That's funny. Most of my response was personal experience as well. Oh, well. Glad you found the silver lining.

You still can't comprehend. I didn't find the silver lining, I found those items I listed for myself. God, are you dense. Are you saying that your PERSONAL experiences have exactly matched the country averages, since that's the arguement you used.

People are going to vote based on their personal experiences/perceptions of how they've done over the last 4 years, NOT the country averages.

Jeeze.

	09-01-2004 01:49									#80
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WOMD never mattered at any point.
Kicking Hussein's ass was well warranted, and Bush screwed the pooch by even bothering to utter the words, WOMD.

	09-01-2004 01:51									#81
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If people remembered how much support McCain was getting last time as an insurgent candidate, they might want to think again about Dean's prospects.

	09-01-2004 02:01									#82
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quote: Originally posted by rah You still can't comprehend. I didn't find the silver lining, I found those items I listed for myself. God, are you dense.

Gee, thanks Rah. First time I've been tossed a personal insult by a moderator.

Now let's see what I posted....

quote: Investment income has been down, or flat at best. The total stock market is still down about 2.5% since he came to office, even though the gains last year were impressive. Dividends have been lower than in the 90s.

Ok, nothing "personal" there, but my investment portfolio has not increased all that much in the past four years other than additional input on my part.

quote: Work income has been flat - most companies have stopped giving any sort of raises, claiming poverty. Personally, I was getting raises near 10% of my salary before Bush came to power. Now I'm lucky if my raise matches the cost-of-living.

Oh, personal experience.

quote: Job security? The unemployment rate was close to 4% when Clinton left office. It is currently at 5.9% (as of Nov 2003). Sounds higher to me. From personal experience, I know several people who have lost jobs in the last three years and either continue to be unemployed or have been forced to take lower paying jobs. These are skilled people, too, that should command decent wages.

quote: As for less taxes, yes, on a Federal level. Meanwhile state and local taxes are being increased to compensate for less Federal funding of local programs. Great - give with one hand and take with the other.

Once again, I didn't say it was personal experience, but it is. My local and state taxes have both increased. Am I paying less overall? Yes, but that's because I keep having children at an alarming rate, so I'm adding more deductions.

Have a nice day.

	09-01-2004 02:03									#83
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand WOMD never mattered at any point. Kicking Hussein's ass was well warranted, and Bush screwed the pooch by even bothering to utter the words, WOMD.

Cool. If it's not about WOMD, when do we take out Mugabe?

	09-01-2004 02:06									#84
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Well, Che and Ramo, that is what you say now. But consider this:

Gulf I was about Kuwait, not WMD. He had used them against the Iranians and Kurds, but not against us during the war. One could reasonably conclude that he would not use them against us based on this. Besides, Saddam's WMD at that time was thought only to be capable of battlefied use.

When al Qa'ida attacked us on 9/11, it became clear that terrorists were willing and capable of conducting truly massive attacks on the US. (In retrospect, we should have been more concerned about the '93 attack on the WTC.) But the threat that Saddam forshadowed was the following anthrax attack. In '98, when the inspectors left, Saddam had not accounted for tons of anthrax materials, IIRC.

Now, you would argue that even if Saddam had anthrax, that the war against Iraq was not justified because there was no connection between Al Qaeda and Saddam. However, even if Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein were natural enemies, it does not mean that they could not unite against a common enemy, the United States, just as United States allied with communist Russia to defeat Nazi Germany. Moreover, Saddam was known to support terrorism abroad and was known to permit terrorist training camps inside Iraq. It does not require a complete absence of intelligence to believe that Saddam could be covertly supporting Osama bin Laden. In fact, with no evidence to the contrary, only a blithering idiot would deny the likelihood of such a covert connection.

So we combine a source of anthrax with a terrorist organization that has shown a willingness and ability to deliver massive attacks on United States, and the calculus on removing Saddam Hussein changes.

	09-01-2004 02:10									#85
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So you are saying we should invade France because theoretically they could nuke us? You can't invade other countries on maybes (well, I guess we just did). Should I be able to kill you because you could, conceivably kill me? How would the law treat me?

	09-01-2004 02:20									#86
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Well we're talking France right?


Hmmm.... tough call.
j/k

	09-01-2004 02:23									#87
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quote: In fact, with no evidence to the contrary, only a blithering idiot would deny the likelihood of such a covert connection.

Except there is evidence to the contrary:
1. Saddam has never participated in a terrorist attack against the US, and there was no good reason for him to do so before a war started.
2. Saddam's main target for the past decade has been Islamists.

Thus, only a "blithering idiot" would assert the likelyhood of a Saddam-al-Qaeda connection, given that there is no evidence such a connection existed (hell, even the gov't has publicly denied that a connection exists).

	09-01-2004 02:25									#88
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There is one problem though. Now, if we don't find the WMD and go like we don't care about it either, it creates a situation when if the US runs into new problems and conflicts and tries to justify it's possible pre emptive strike, the international scene is likely to be holding on to this WMD thing, and that the word can not be trusted as far as 'we have evidence, 100%' goes.

International help wasn't huge last time, but I think it would be wise to not burn bridges and shut doors in the way.. so we should think about what to do with that argument. I'm not saying US is not to be trusted, all I'm saying is there might be countries using this argument and watering down US plans to get help.

What should be done?

	09-01-2004 02:26									#89
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Hey stuie, you started it by asking

"What country are you living in?"

I answered. You implied that it's impossible to have had success in THIS COUNTRY since Bush took office. I HAVE and many other people have too. I can't help if it if you haven't. So I assume you won't vote for him. I will be. Thanks for making my point that people will vote how the PERSONALLY have percieved the improvement or FAILURES during the last four years.

	09-01-2004 02:27									#90
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Ned, just a sidenote, everyone has Anthrax, everyone.