10-01-2004 05:06									#61
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse BTW, I would really have loved to see Bush sell a war to the US with the line "he doesn't have CNB weapons, but he hasn't rolled over and played dead enough for us"...

I would have been fine with it.

	10-01-2004 05:07									#62
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We almost went to war in 1998 over it. Actually we sorta did. It was just a wimpy little one.

	10-01-2004 05:07									#63
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GWI and following sanctions completely pulled his teeth. He was no threat to anybody any more, even the ***** states of the Gulf region.

	10-01-2004 05:08									#64
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If you look back even before the war, I said that this was a continuation of GW1. I have not changed my stance.

	10-01-2004 05:08									#65
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quote: Originally posted by TCO I would have been fine with it.

You and maybe 15% of the US. The rest wouldn't have been. That's why he lied.

Remember the Gulf of Tonkin!

	10-01-2004 05:09									#66
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quote: Originally posted by TCO If you look back even before the war, I said that this was a continuation of GW1. I have not changed my stance.

I'm not arguing that you have been inconsistent. I'm arguing that the US would not have gone to war without obfuscation and exaggeration by a deceitful US admin

	10-01-2004 05:09									#67
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We did not know that. He had a history of cheating. look at his nuclear program in the 1980s. Regardless, burden of proof was on him after 1991. I shed no tears for him. His thugs tortured my USNA teammate who was a POW. **** him.

	10-01-2004 05:11									#68
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I'm not arguing that you have been inconsistent. I'm arguing that the US would not have gone to war without obfuscation and exaggeration by a deceitful US admin

I think that is too strong a statement of it.

	10-01-2004 05:11									#69
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If you think my heart is bleeding for Saddam then you'd better think again.

	10-01-2004 05:12									#70
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse If you think my heart is bleeding for Saddam then you'd better think again.

Fooker thinks that the people doing attacks now are freedom fighters. He thinks that they will boom boom shake up the room like Greek Novembers.

	10-01-2004 05:15									#71
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse You and maybe 15% of the US. The rest wouldn't have been. That's why he lied. Remember the Gulf of Tonkin!

I think that is too strong of a statement of it. They did not knowingly lie. They went forward with the best case they could and beleived it, but obviously did not have the smoking gun. I even said this at the time.

fYI: not all the opposition to the war was on the issue of CBN existence. There were lots of people who said there opposition was not centered on the disagreement of CBN eistence,

	10-01-2004 05:17									#72
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Some of the folks shooting at US troops now are freedom fighters (not that this necessarily makes their actions wise; just that it means they don't necessarily have evil intentions). Some are old Ba'athists who want to get chance at torturing some more Iraqis. Some are religious nutjobs.

I have no idea what the percentages are.

And if somebody shoots only at military targets then I'm certainly not going to call them terrorists.

Maybe they will boom boom shake up the room like Lebanon.

	10-01-2004 05:17									#73
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They are losers, kitty. Shooting at a soldier doesn't make it all ok.

	10-01-2004 05:19									#74
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quote: Originally posted by TCO I think that is too strong of a statement of it. They did not knowingly lie. They went forward with the best case they could and beleived it, but obviously did not have the smoking gun. I even said this at the time. fYI: not all the opposition to the war was on the issue of CBN existence. There were lots of people who said there opposition was not centered on the disagreement of CBN eistence,

They made a lot of suppositions and stated them as facts. Exaggerated a lot of things. Knowingly presented false intelligence (African uranium)

And I remember how uncomfortable Powell was in front of UN. He knew he was lying and had enough decency left to feel bad about it.

	10-01-2004 05:20									#75
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quote: Originally posted by TCO They are losers, kitty. Shooting at a soldier doesn't make it all ok.

I didn't say it was "ok". It certainly doesn't make it legal (guerillas are not afforded protection under Geneva Convention for a reason).

But it doesn't make me very angry either.

	10-01-2004 05:22									#76
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse They made a lot of suppositions and stated them as facts. Exaggerated a lot of things. Knowingly presented false intelligence (African uranium) And I remember how uncomfortable Powell was in front of UN. He knew he was lying and had enough decency left to feel bad about it.

I don't think he thought he was lying (haven't seen the speech though.) DOn't know what he said in it. Don't think we made a lie on uranium.

I agree with the comments about making too strong of a case and the moral issue of dishonesty in doing so.

	10-01-2004 05:24									#77
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I didn't say it was "ok". It certainly doesn't make it legal (guerillas are not afforded protection under Geneva Convention for a reason). But it doesn't make me very angry either.

they have some rights actually. I don't remember the exact details, but it is pretty generous in treating partisans and such as war prisoners.

	10-01-2004 05:26									#78
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I don't think so. Only those who have "spontaneously taken up arms" in unoccupied territory, and who bear them openly get POW status under aricle 6(?)

	10-01-2004 05:50									#79
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You might be right. I am trying to reach back to a weeklong summer course at USNA. Looked at something on the web and seemed to back up your view...

	10-01-2004 06:07									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Well, it is good that Powell tries to restore his credibility, after the disgrace of last year in the UN

And you are giving thumbs-up here? It's not like at first he sincerely believed what he said at the UN, and then, many months later, realized the truth and acknowledged it. On the contrary, they planned it all from the very beginning like this: to lie at first, and then, when the business is done, to acknowledge the truth and thus partly "restore their credibility". Therefore, what Powell says now is nothing more than continuation of one big lie.

	10-01-2004 06:15									#81
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It is obvious they knew they were lying from the beginning, but I don't think it was planned that the lie gets admitted.

Powell was the one in the White House who was pushing for the UN to take part in the war, which explains why he was the one to present the 'proof' rather than Bush himself or the head of the Intelligence.

I am convinced that Powell didn't enjoy at all to tell the lies his president ordered him to tell, and it showed, as his lies were of poor quality and sounded unconvincing even in his mouth.

I think that Powell had no choice between following these orders he disagreed with, and resigning. I believe the guy refused to resign to avoid worsening the diplomatic situation in a very untimely manner. You'll notice he made it public shortly later that he would not be a member of the Bush team after the reelection.

I think Powell admitted the weak intelligence for his own sake,rather than for the service to the Bushies. But maybe I'm completely wrong in thinkng this guy is the only one in the administration that deserves to be respected.

	10-01-2004 06:26									#82
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oh save it. Friggin saddam-lover. France is just dissapointed their boy is gone and dissappointed that htheri little power truggle lost.

	10-01-2004 06:48									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor It is obvious they knew they were lying from the beginning, but I don't think it was planned that the lie gets admitted.

Of course they planned it! More precisely, they planned that they would either come across some solid evidence a posteriori (and then their lies would be covered), or admit their "mistake".

Note: they don't admit a lie, they admit a mistake!

quote: Powell was the one in the White House who was pushing for the UN to take part in the war, which explains why he was the one to present the 'proof' rather than Bush himself or the head of the Intelligence.

And this was his huge mistake. The US would be in a far better position now if went to war without the UN and without all those lies.

quote: I am convinced that Powell didn't enjoy at all to tell the lies his president ordered him to tell, and it showed, as his lies were of poor quality and sounded unconvincing even in his mouth.

Of course he was embarassed. Nonetheless he did it.

quote: I think that Powell had no choice between following these orders he disagreed with, and resigning. I believe the guy refused to resign to avoid worsening the diplomatic situation in a very untimely manner.

Well, perhaps this can partly exculpate him. At that point his choice was horrible: either to lie, or to put his country in an embarrassing situation. In this sense, he sacrificed himself for his country.

quote: You'll notice he made it public shortly later that he would not be a member of the Bush team after the reelection.

But he retracted from this when confronted by the media. Well, perhaps it was also planned like this: spread gossip first, and then deny it when asked. This is a "soft" way of spreading the news.

quote: I think Powell admitted the weak intelligence for his own sake,rather than for the service to the Bushies. But maybe I'm completely wrong in thinkng this guy is the only one in the administration that deserves to be respected.

I don't believe he could make this statement without consulting with the adminitration. You seem to idealize Powell a little bit. Before his speech to the UN he was certainly a decent person, and it's a pity that circumstamces turned for him in this way.