14-01-2004 04:09									#331
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I don't think God hates anybody.

	14-01-2004 04:10									#332
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov OFF TOPIC

uh, yeah

	14-01-2004 06:24									#333
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I don't think God hates anybody.

Probably right.

But Hitler would come close.

	14-01-2004 09:16									#334
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I don't think God hates anybody.

AHHHHH!!!!!


Such scary, dangerous, radical ideas that Jerry Falwell would cringe at!!

	14-01-2004 16:50									#335
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Just to set the record straight, the translation of Leviticus 20:13 that he uses is a rather bad one. More accurately (ie directly translating from the Hebrew) it would read (iirc) 'If a man lies down with another man on a woman's bed.....' so it doesn't condemn homosexuality - just where you do it. I have heard it said that this is a reference to sex in pagan temples, but I think it is more likely to be an infidelity issue.

	14-01-2004 17:58									#336
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I don't think God hates anybody.

Actually I do. I hate you and that Bush bloke.

	14-01-2004 19:29									#337
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Just to set the record straight, the translation of Leviticus 20:13 that he uses is a rather bad one. More accurately (ie directly translating from the Hebrew) it would read (iirc) 'If a man lies down with another man on a woman's bed.....' so it doesn't condemn homosexuality - just where you do it. I have heard it said that this is a reference to sex in pagan temples, but I think it is more likely to be an infidelity issue.

If we assume your translation is correct and work from a fundamentalist viewpoint that every word in the bible is to be accepted as the actual will of god, then as long as its not in a 'womans bed' its OK. So whether its a sin or not may come down to who paid for the bed? Maybe 'womans bed' refers to a soft pink one with frills instead of a hard blueish coloured one?

Curiouser and curiouser.

	14-01-2004 19:39									#338
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No, no, no...

An Aramaic "women's bed" means a bed designed for lovemaking, NOT a bed owned by a woman. I'm really not sure if Hebrew gets this concept over or not...

Presumably screwing on the mantlepiece was OK... No, that doesn't seem right somehow...

Look, take it as read that "literal interpretation" means nothing unless you are actually talking, living and breathing in the original language.

	15-01-2004 01:06									#339
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I don't think God hates anybody.

Probably right.

EDITED BY MING: oh yes I do

	15-01-2004 02:57									#340
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quote: Originally posted by Ned One can only speculate about Christian's reactions if they were ordered to tolerate divorced and remarried people. They might vigorously protest the order, just as this man did.

My step mom is an episcopal priest, she remarried, to my father...

	15-01-2004 02:59									#341
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 My step mom is an episcopal priest, she remarried, to my father...

Divorced and remarried?

I am surprised the church recognizes such. They don't in England.

	15-01-2004 03:01									#342
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You're surprised that a chuch that just elected an openly gay bishop allows people to divorce and remarry?

	15-01-2004 03:11									#343
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov You're surprised that a chuch that just elected an openly gay bishop allows people to divorce and remarry?

I'll think on that for a moment.

But, is there a concept called sin remaining in the Episcopalian church? Do they stand for anything?

	15-01-2004 04:27									#344
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quote: So you're saying God doesn't love lesbians, Ben? Harsh.

Nope. Dinodoc got what I was trying to say.

Here's the evidence to the contrary, that God does not make distinctions between lesbians and gay men.

Romans 1:24-7

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

	15-01-2004 04:30									#345
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quote: Just to set the record straight, the translation of Leviticus 20:13 that he uses is a rather bad one. More accurately (ie directly translating from the Hebrew) it would read (iirc) 'If a man lies down with another man on a woman's bed.....' so it doesn't condemn homosexuality - just where you do it. I have heard it said that this is a reference to sex in pagan temples, but I think it is more likely to be an infidelity issue.

My citation comes from the NIV, Rogan, and says:

" 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Nothing about beds. Where are you getting this translation, Rogan, since it makes absolutely no sense in the context of the passage, to make the distinction just in where the act takes place. The act in itself seems to be condemned.

	15-01-2004 06:07									#346
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Nope. Dinodoc got what I was trying to say.

I know--you just need to be more precise in your responses so people can't make easy digs like that.

	15-01-2004 06:08									#347
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Anyhthing worth reading in this thread, Boris?

	15-01-2004 06:08									#348
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi My citation comes from the NIV, Rogan, and says:

That's all you need say. We've been over this countless times. The NIV is steaming poo in terms of its accuracy of translation. It actually uses the word "homosexual," when the very concept of such a thing didn't exist until the late 19th century.

	15-01-2004 06:10									#349
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quote: Originally posted by Ned But, is there a concept called sin remaining in the Episcopalian church? Do they stand for anything?

Honestly, what's so sinful about people with irreconcilable differences going their seperate ways and finding happiness with someone else?

I think you'll find Episcopalians still have problems with murder, theft, lying, adultery, etc.

	15-01-2004 06:10									#350
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you trendsetter you

	15-01-2004 10:41									#351
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quote: you just need to be more precise in your responses so people can't make easy digs like that.

Then what would you do for pleasure?

quote: The NIV is steaming poo in terms of its accuracy of translation. It actually uses the word "homosexual," when the very concept of such a thing didn't exist until the late 19th century.

It's still better than Rogan's interpretation, since he has yet to cite a source. That's what I find puzzling is where he's getting his translation from.

Besides, the issue here is whether the NIV does a good job on this one particular verse. You don't see them use the word homosexual here.

	15-01-2004 10:53									#352
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Pulled.

Last edited by Ben Kenobi on 15-01-2004 at 11:25

	15-01-2004 11:49									#353
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.

Could mean anything. Could mean coitus interruptus, could mean anal sex with goats, frottage with a camel, masturbation with selected vegetables and fruits, does not explicitly say women had sex with other women.

Even if you might like it to.

	15-01-2004 11:53									#354
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Care to read in context, Molly?

	15-01-2004 12:03									#355
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Care to read in context, Molly?

Oh right. Because you think it should mean lesbians, it does.

Because people wanted the sin of Onan to be masturbation, poof! it was.

In a patriarchal society like that of the Jews, do you seriously think any of those woolly bearded sheepherders could possibly conceive of two women deriving sexual pleasure from each other? Even in the last century, plenty of people couldn't comprehend what two women could do together.

The verse could imply incest, bestiality, transvestism, promiscuity, anything other than the 'monogamous heterosexual norm'.

Odd how god can be explicit about shellfish, menstrual taboos, disabilities, and oops-a-daisy, not spell out lesbianism. Shouldn't be too difficult, one would have thought- there were after all groups of priestesses in the pagan societies who lived in single sex groups, and the example of Sappho.

	15-01-2004 14:42									#356
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom The verse could imply incest, bestiality, transvestism, promiscuity, anything other than the 'monogamous heterosexual norm'.

Besides, lesbianism is pretty common in nature, so it would seem strange for God to refer to it as "unnatural", especially since he presumabley made the animals (and lesbians) that way.

	15-01-2004 16:01									#357
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I just ate like 6 ghetto pizzas and a huge bowl of Vanilla Ice Cream with chocolate drizzling and I think I'm going to be sick

	15-01-2004 19:42									#358
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ghetto pizzas???