10-01-2004 10:53									#241
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Only a zealot does follow a whole set of belief elaborated by somebody else without doubting on any single point. What I like in Jesus' message are the concepts of forgiveness, unconditional love, and empathy. In comparison with the bloodthirsty values of the ancient times, such message was a huge progress. However, the acceptance of such philosophy does not require to accept the Jewish Law. That's because I'm fond of the message of love Jesus happened to be very instrumental in spreading (but he wasn't the first one to develop it - you can find some elements of this message in Plato). Not because I'm fan of the guy, or of the religious juju

So, Christian ideas you like, so they are good. Jewish Law you don't like, so it is bad? Sounds sort of judgemental, especially given what people tell you about modern interpretations, doesn't it? Maybe even a little like a zealot?

	10-01-2004 10:59									#242
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor As for the loveable Psalms Psalms Chapter 59 quote: Deliver me from mine enemies, O my God: defend me from them that rise up against me. Deliver me from the workers of iniquity, and save me from bloody men. For, lo, they lie in wait for my soul: the mighty are gathered against me; not for my transgression, nor for my sin, O LORD. They run and prepare themselves without my fault: awake to help me, and behold. Thou therefore, O LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel, awake to visit all the heathen: be not merciful to any wicked transgressors. Selah. They return at evening: they make a noise like a dog, and go round about the city. Behold, they belch out with their mouth: swords are in their lips: for who, say they, doth hear? But thou, O LORD, shalt laugh at them; thou shalt have all the heathen in derision. Because of his strength will I wait upon thee: for God is my defence. The God of my mercy shall prevent me: God shall let me see my desire upon mine enemies. Slay them not, lest my people forget: scatter them by thy power; and bring them down, O Lord our shield. For the sin of their mouth and the words of their lips let them even be taken in their pride: and for cursing and lying which they speak. Consume them in wrath, consume them, that they may not be: and let them know that God ruleth in Jacob unto the ends of the earth. Selah. Consume them in wrath, consume them, that they may not be: and let them know that God ruleth in Jacob unto the ends of the earth. Selah. Let them wander up and down for meat, and grudge if they be not satisfied. But I will sing of thy power; yea, I will sing aloud of thy mercy in the morning: for thou hast been my defence and refuge in the day of my trouble. Unto thee, O my strength, will I sing: for God is my defence, and the God of my mercy. Yeah, a text that does overgeneralisations on "all heatens", that calls God to "consume them". Gotta torment some "wicked trangressors", don't we? Besides, after a short scanning, the text looks impressively cultist, in the meaning that the inferiority of people toward God seems reminded in each chapter. Since I appreciate the message of Jesus from a human perspective, I sure don't like such reference to mankind's powerlessness.

but...

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Of course, if fundamentalism wasn't this present in the US, and if more Chrisitians could avoid reading the Old Testament literally, less fun would be poked at them.

So, is it them who is not to take it literally, or you? Or both?

	10-01-2004 11:09									#243
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither So, Christian ideas you like, so they are good. Jewish Law you don't like, so it is bad? Sounds sort of judgemental, especially given what people tell you about modern interpretations, doesn't it? Maybe even a little like a zealot?

1) If any persons who exerts judgements is a zealot, we have been living in the age of zealotry since the invention of speech

2) Modern interpretations. Keyword. I have actually taken interest to these texts onyl since I saw people quoting them with the intent that they get followed literarily. The HP employee this thread is about is one of them. These people are called fundamentalists, or, as Ben would put it, people who see the Book as holding truth in itself, independent from modern interpretation and historical context.

I see nothing wrong with a religion that acknowledges that its ancient texts express a still-living message in an outdated way (although I think it is hypocritical), and that everything that qualifies as horrible by today's standards just don't mean that.

I have a problem with fundamentalists who want to bring back the days of old, when people obeyed the Word of God for real

Actually, I think the Jews have sorted it out with the Talmud, an official reinterpretation of the Old Testament, that is supposed to lay down the law at short term (a few centuries, i.e. peanuts by Biblical standards). The Catholics have sorted it out with an influent priesthood that weighs more than the fundamental text. But the Protestants, despite having driven a liberatroy force in the middle ages, have the potential of being the worst sectarists in the Christian world, because of the professed inherent truth within the Bible. A guy like Phelps is really nice compared to what a strict obediance of the OT would bring. And Muslim fundamentalism is exactly as scary.

	10-01-2004 11:19									#244
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither So, is it them who is not to take it literally, or you? Or both?

Actually, I don't consider the Bible as being a Holy Book that should be followed. I think the OT is the accumulation of the Jewish oral lore, which is different from other oral lores only in that it mentions a single God, rather than multiple competing Gods.

There is absolutely no reason to follow the supposedly intemporal Law laid out in the OT, because I hold these laws for being merely laws of man, that had to be sacralized to be obeyed in these archaic times.

I see the Bible as I'd look at a book about the traditional religion of the Swahili, or at a description of Shinto: something that is all nice to explain collective history and mentalities, but something that should certainly not bother me in the daily life.
The Bible is slightly different, as Judeo-Christianism is my cultural origin, but even in this perspective, it's not something that has a direct influence on me: most of what I appreciate in Jesus has been since better formulated by humanists and by the enlightenment.

I've begun to read the Bible carefully only since frequenting this place, as I've seen fundies. Yep, people who quote the Bible, and who think there is a truth in whatever isolated sentence of it. Just like the HP guy of the opening post.
I've begun to read it only to make sure what I already knew for years: that the OT is full of hatred, and displays a God that all today's standards would call "evil" without second thought. Now, the only thing I learned is where to find one-liners that discredit the fundies. Nothing more.

	10-01-2004 12:08									#245
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quote: Now, the only thing I learned is where to find one-liners that discredit the fundies. Nothing more.

That's good. Just be careful you don't cast your net too wide. Interesting statements abound in this thread. Like this one:

quote: But the Protestants, despite having driven a liberatroy force in the middle ages, have the potential of being the worst sectarists in the Christian world, because of the professed inherent truth within the Bible.

Now, I don't know about you, but I know of many pacifistic Protestants and some down right peaceful Protestant sects. However, they don't fit your model, so we'll ignore them.

	10-01-2004 12:51									#246
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I was asked what my personal beliefs are on this issue. I believe that homosexuality is inate and there cannot be a sin. To the extent that religion teaches this, religion is wrong.

I also think it is inconsistent, unethical and immoral to simulataneously teach that homosexuality is a sin (at least its practice) and to teach tolerance. The two thoughts do not mix well.

I think churches need to address this issue directly and not cover it up and paper it over by calls for tolerance. It is time for religion to face science once again.

	10-01-2004 13:02									#247
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Ned:

All I can say is: bravo

Well put. Now we should just let the thread die

	10-01-2004 13:22									#248
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Then stop.

Stop what??

	10-01-2004 13:31									#249
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quote: I think churches need to address this issue directly and not cover it up and paper it over by calls for tolerance. It is time for religion to face science once again.

It is ironic to hear religious folk call homosexuality a sin but that we must be tolerant of it. This defies logic unless religious folk are willing to ascribe to the notion that while sins are...well...sins, they are not crimes and it is crime that the law should address, not sin.

	10-01-2004 14:11									#250
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Catholics don't agree with divorce, but they tolerate it in society around them. There is a difference between tolerating others and subverting your own beliefs.

	10-01-2004 14:23									#251
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quote: I'm not sure. Unconditional belief is zealot for sure, but unconditional rejection need not to be. For example, I think a guy like you would be really furious when reading Mein Kampf, or when reading some Muslim piece of religious garbage. I don't think there is any zealotry in that.

Everyday I read stuff that I don't agree with, but I still need to consider their arguments. Rejecting something off-hand would have me say that just garbage after reading the first bit without trying to understand the rest.

Interesting examples of people I would be furious reading, although I would probably put the Communist Manifesto over any Muslim writer.

	10-01-2004 14:31									#252
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quote: Now, I don't know about you, but I know of many pacifistic Protestants and some down right peaceful Protestant sects. However, they don't fit your model, so we'll ignore them.

Kind of a big hole in the model, eh?

Spiffor:

quote: Now, the only thing I learned is where to find one-liners that discredit the fundies.

Honestly, do you count me among their number?

	10-01-2004 16:41									#253
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor But the Protestants, despite having driven a liberatroy force in the middle ages, have the potential of being the worst sectarists in the Christian world, because of the professed inherent truth within the Bible. A guy like Phelps is really nice compared to what a strict obediance of the OT would bring. And Muslim fundamentalism is exactly as scary.

The problem is that "Protestant" covers quite a wide range of churches: Most of the protestants (at least in Europe) seem to be clearly more open not to understand the Bible literally and to accept and tolerate changes in society.

	10-01-2004 17:06									#254
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Actually, I don't consider the Bible as being a Holy Book that should be followed. I think the OT is the accumulation of the Jewish oral lore, which is different from other oral lores only in that it mentions a single God, rather than multiple competing Gods. There is absolutely no reason to follow the supposedly intemporal Law laid out in the OT, because I hold these laws for being merely laws of man, that had to be sacralized to be obeyed in these archaic times. I see the Bible as I'd look at a book about the traditional religion of the Swahili, or at a description of Shinto: something that is all nice to explain collective history and mentalities, but something that should certainly not bother me in the daily life. The Bible is slightly different, as Judeo-Christianism is my cultural origin, but even in this perspective, it's not something that has a direct influence on me: most of what I appreciate in Jesus has been since better formulated by humanists and by the enlightenment. I've begun to read the Bible carefully only since frequenting this place, as I've seen fundies. Yep, people who quote the Bible, and who think there is a truth in whatever isolated sentence of it. Just like the HP guy of the opening post. I've begun to read it only to make sure what I already knew for years: that the OT is full of hatred, and displays a God that all today's standards would call "evil" without second thought. Now, the only thing I learned is where to find one-liners that discredit the fundies. Nothing more.

The OT?

	10-01-2004 18:08									#255
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Sihks might not be able to continually hold on to their daggers if the company policy says no weapons.

Good rant! I've really seen an escalation in many recent posts. Is stress a problem?

Actually the Sikh's have won a similar case related to wearing turbans (which precludes wearing a hard hat) on construction sites- based upon their religious beliefs.

NB: it may have been in Canada not here (I lose track of such things)

In any case, you've missed the point of my post. You may wish to dismiss the beliefs of the christian conservatives, but given their large numbers they have the power to make things worse for gays and non-christians.

Based upon the current law, it appears as if someone could be fired for displaying a cross at work (and refusing to take it down) if it offends someone. That could also apply to openly wearing a religious artifact while at work.

Consider the implications. Ignoring their beliefs is stupid.

	10-01-2004 18:21									#256
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Now, I don't know about you, but I know of many pacifistic Protestants and some down right peaceful Protestant sects. However, they don't fit your model, so we'll ignore them.

They fit in my model very nicely. In my opinion, Protestantism has the highest potential among Christianty for terrible fundamentalism. Fortunately, this doesn't mean this potential is fulfilled by every church.

Even more so, I think Protestantism has also the potential to become the Christian religion I'd respect most, among the Churches that have the premise of not interpreting the Bible literarily, and that consider the Bible as a necessarily flawed media to transfer the word of God.

The absence of central protestant leadership allows all these forms to exist. I don't want to revile the Protestants, as I think they have been a modernizing force in the world. But I want to revile fundamentalists, and I think the basis of Protestantism (truth lies in the Bible rather than in the word of priests) can allow for the worst Christian fundamentalism.

	10-01-2004 18:25									#257
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Honestly, do you count me among their number?

I don't know. I remember you have called yourself a fundamentalist in the past, but your posts in this thread show that you take the OT with a pinch of salt (a devoutly Christian one, but a pinch of salt nonetheless).

After the discussions in this thread, I believe that you are not a fundamentalist, but you are close to one. As you acquire more knowledge and understanding of both Testaments, I sure hope you'll increase your distances with the despicable aspects of the OT, to further strive for what a Christian should be about : tolerance, love, forgiveness and understanding

	11-01-2004 02:02									#258
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Catholics don't agree with divorce, but they tolerate it in society around them. There is a difference between tolerating others and subverting your own beliefs.

The problem is not divorce, per se. It is remarriage.

But, back to this case. There is no evidence that this employee was harrassing any gay or being intollerant of gays in any way -- until the company went on its crusade.

One can only speculate about Christian's reactions if they were ordered to tolerate divorced and remarried people. They might vigorously protest the order, just as this man did.

	11-01-2004 03:48									#259
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quote: Originally posted by Ned One can only speculate about Christian's reactions if they were ordered to tolerate divorced and remarried people. They might vigorously protest the order, just as this man did.

I don't think there is anything wrong in forcing people to tolerate their colleagues. In a comapny, you're assumed to take part in a working team spirit. Even if you loathe your colleagues for their lifestyle, you are supposed to show a polished face that allows for efficient working interactions with them.

Besides, this guy was harboring offensive content in front of customers. The guy chose to offend his colleagues and customers, and he refused to change his ways after being warned. HP was entirely right in firing him.

	11-01-2004 04:06									#260
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I don't think there is anything wrong in forcing people to tolerate their colleagues. In a comapny, you're assumed to take part in a working team spirit. Even if you loathe your colleagues for their lifestyle, you are supposed to show a polished face that allows for efficient working interactions with them. Besides, this guy was harboring offensive content in front of customers. The guy chose to offend his colleagues and customers, and he refused to change his ways after being warned. HP was entirely right in firing him.

Spiffor, You must know that the 9th Circuit was out to get this guy and marshalled a lot of "facts" to make him look like a complete idiot. The citation to the "customers" was one such "fact." The customers had to be in the cube areas first. How they got there is a question since "customers" don't normally go into areas of employee's cubes.

What he was doing was protesting the pro-gay company policy and posters. He even offered to stop if the company would stop. The bit about attacking his fellow employees is just a lot of bull, IMHO, as it was clear that he was protesting the policy and not going on some sort of gay witch hunt.

What was interesting about the opinion was that there was no testimony that people could not post opinion matters generally on visible areas of their cubes. That lack of testimony is critical to HP's position. If they generally allowed people to express their opinion in this manner but not in this case, the position of HP becomes untenable.

	11-01-2004 04:09									#261
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Still, I don't think the Supremes will take this case because if the muddy waters about the propriety of the protest.

	11-01-2004 10:51									#262
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Ned, m'dear...as usual, you're full of crap:

quote: Peterson deliberately hung the verses where employees and customers would see them, the Associated Press reported.

Now, unless you happen to be familiar with that particular business place and know exactly where the man posted the verses, I'd say your statements about there being a "witch hunt" are, like Ben's, malarky.

And another thing--HP's posters simply told employees to tolerate gay coworkers. Now, if the sincere Christian belief is "love the sinner, hate the sin," then what's the problem? The poster is asking them to leave the "sinner" alone. It's not asking them to tolerate the "sin."

And, as has been noted several times, he was fired for being insubordinate. Not for harassing people.

	11-01-2004 11:17									#263
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If the new HP policy galled this guy so much, what he should have done, if he is a "man of conviction" as he claims, was quit the company. That simple.

	11-01-2004 11:20									#264
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quote: Originally posted by GePap If the new HP policy galled this guy so much, what he should have done, if he is a "man of conviction" as he claims, was quit the company. That simple.

What, you mean an entire company shouldn't have to prostrate itself to a single man's beliefs?

	11-01-2004 12:52									#265
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov What, you mean an entire company shouldn't have to prostrate itself to a single man's beliefs?

Well, some people do not know how the real world works, Boris -- so maybe there's no use in explaining this aspect to them?

	11-01-2004 15:09									#266
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quote: I remember you have called yourself a fundamentalist in the past

Spiffor:

I don't think we have the same definition of fundamentalism, which is why I find it interesting when you talk about fundies.

quote: HP's posters simply told employees to tolerate gay coworkers.

Boris:

We don't know that. No one has posted the actual wording of the HP policy. The devil is in the details.

Now, insubordination is a little different than creating a hostile workplace, is it not? That's where I see this witch-hunt in making sure the employee conforms with this policy.

	11-01-2004 15:13									#267
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Boris: We don't know that. No one has posted the actual wording of the HP policy. The devil is in the details. Now, insubordination is a little different than creating a hostile workplace, is it not? That's where I see this witch-hunt in making sure the employee conforms with this policy.

It is absurd and obtuse to assume that the posters somehow forced employees into "agreeing" with the "gay lifestyle" or anything to that extent -- it serves no purpose and it's highly unlikely that a "tolerance policy" does anything more than promote tolerance in the workplace.

Grasping at straws is an understatement, Ben.

	11-01-2004 15:26									#268
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Who gives a ****? The guy is obviously a prat and can be easily replaced. No great loss to the company, and doubtfully a loss to customer service.

	11-01-2004 20:21									#269
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http://www.bizjournals.com/sanfranc...05/daily28.html

quote: The disputte began when the company began displaying posters promoting diversity in its Boise office. The series consisted of posters showing photographs of a Hewlett-Packard employees above the caption "Black," "Blonde," "Old," "Gay," or "Hispanic."

Oooh, look at that "evil." Forcing a Christian to see that they have gay employees. Such a trampling on rights...

Also, about Leviticus:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/a...RTICLE_ID=36484

quote: Peterson conceded one of the Scripture passages he posted, from Leviticus, was "intended to be hurtful," according to the wire service.

Guess that about wraps it up. Asshat gets what he deserves.

	12-01-2004 02:08									#270
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Yup.