10-01-2004 08:26									#1
	Pretty Good Science Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Here's an SSC with pretty good science, over 2000 beakers.

Attachment: pretty_good_ science.jpg
This has been downloaded 171 time(s).

	10-01-2004 10:05									#2
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Excellent!!

Too bad about the mountain.

Madrid must be a very special city to get +40 trade routes.

Monk

	10-01-2004 13:33									#3
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One mountain left to terraform

It's a pity solo is such an early lander and doesn't have time to take care about that kind of details

	10-01-2004 14:58									#4
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Wow

	11-01-2004 01:41									#5
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Very nice. But probably overkill. I assume Newt's is there too.

	11-01-2004 04:58									#6
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quote: Originally posted by rah Very nice. But probably overkill. I assume Newt's is there too.

Overkill??

Only in the popgun version of the games you play now. You probably have not heard of Early Landing Games wherein speedy progress through the tech tree is the key to an early launch. Otherwise, the beauty and great value of 2000+ beakers from the SSC would be evident and prized.

With such an SSC, multiple techs per turn are a snap with any overseas trade, since the SSC contributes one by itself. So, not overkill.

If you can abide playing -v- the AI, you might actually enjoy vanilla Civ2 again. There is even a strategy guide!!

Hyperbolically speaking of course...

Monk

	11-01-2004 06:04									#7
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Alas, 2048 beakerts only lasted a brief turn or two until Flight was discovered. Without the Colossus, the total "plummeted" to 1656.

This city had Newton's and SETI was also contibuting a research lab. SETI probably was overdoing things, since 3 tech turns could not quite be manged in this one. Madrid was size 8, before 500 AD, about as big as an AI city can get by that time, and 3 railed routes produced as many trade arrows as I've seen in any game.

The mountain was purely for recreation and to enjoy as a vista. Slim Buttes was a hides repeater most of the game, too, but when playing as the Sioux, what else would you expect them to trade when there were all those buffalo running around.

	11-01-2004 16:59									#8
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quote: Originally posted by solo The mountain was purely for recreation and to enjoy as a vista. .

50 000 pounds calculations + 1 pound poetry = the best of civ2

	11-01-2004 22:17									#9
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I'm surprised you had the time to use food caravans to grow the city - or have I missed something?

Stu

	11-01-2004 23:39									#10
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Stu,

The two silk were used as irrigated wheat for extra food early and converted to silk after growth for more trade arrows.

	12-01-2004 04:58									#11
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Dem's a lot o' beakers. I don't think I've seen 2000+ before.

	12-01-2004 21:44									#12
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Geeze Bloody Monk, chill. Yes I have heard of early launch (five or so years ago, I participated and held the record for a few days), and I was the second player to win at OCC.

This is overkill if you're playing a normal game against the AI or othe human players for that fact.

And I stopped playing vanilla games years ago because they were no challange.

Humans are the only fun opponents, whether it be a MP game or one of the challanges. But the people have gotten so good at the challanges now, that even they're no fun anymore because the super anal approach that is necessary sucks all the fun out of it.

It's not like it took skill to make that city, just tedioius following predetermined methodologies.

	12-01-2004 22:52									#13
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quote: Originally posted by rah It's not like it took skill to make that city, just tedioius following predetermined methodologies.

I think you are somewhat unfair, because the 'predetermined methodologies' were in fact built by those people (mostly samson and solo) after many hours of brilliant research that really deserves to be admired IMHO.

Otherwise I agree that human opponents are much more of a challenge than the AI. But MP sessions are not the only way.
I enjoy very much PBEM games (despite their low rythm) and scenarios (where the human opponent is the author who has built in enough nasty surprises to make it a new game each time).
My (limited) experience at MP makes me think that it is a very special kind of game where you build cities on mountains and develop a high degree of aggressivity and speed.

You should allow other people to enjoy it otherwise.

	12-01-2004 23:06									#14
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I should chill??

You have become little Richie one note with your MP riff. So predictable and condescending toward anyone who still enjoys the traditional game. The way you describe your games it sounds like you no longer have the patience or attention span to play anything other than hurry up and die MP one nighters. But that does not mean someone would have to be "super anal" to play another style. It only takes interest. Sorry you lost yours.

Look, I bow before your greater experience and wisdom. Truly, you have forgotten more than I will ever know. (Especially now that I can no longer play.) I just think it is a shame that you seem to ALSO have forgotten the excitement and magic that this game can cause.

There are still new players coming to this game. Throwing cold water on their enthusiasm and turning every query to an MP plug is not particularly helpful, even though it may make you feel superior.

You ARE superior; now get over your bad self and act like a Mod. Please.

Monk

	12-01-2004 23:30									#15
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quote: Originally posted by La Fayette I think you are somewhat unfair, because the 'predetermined methodologies' were in fact built by those people (mostly samson and solo) after many hours of brilliant research that really deserves to be admired IMHO.

Couldn't have put it better myself. I'll add that it's far from being a closed book; refinements are being added all the time.

	12-01-2004 23:49									#16
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk You ARE superior; now get over your bad self and act like a Mod. Please. Monk

Geeze, all I originally said was
VERY NICE, probably overkill, and you jumped on me big time. All I did was respond to your venomous reply.
And I didn't attack anyone personally like you did me. Please reread how you responded to my compliment to SOLO "VERY NICE".

So yes you ARE superior, now get over it and act like a human being. and CHILL some more.

AND I will stand by, terraforming, roads, wonders, trade routes, really doesn't require a lot of skill. The only thing research has done was on maximizing trade routes. I'll give them all the kudos in the world for all the many other game mechanics that they have researched. They've expanded our knowledge of the game considerably. But building SSCs have been around for a long time.

	13-01-2004 00:55									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

rah,

You are responding to strawmen distractors to the observations offered.

What I said was in no way venomous and there was no attack intended, plus, I acknowledged YOUR superiority. I would never claim that. I really hope that is not all you got from what I said and I am sorry you were offended.

Maybe, if you could hold the attitude that I am a friend offering feedback, you could reread what I said and not feel so threatened. Or not. Do as thou will.

Monk

	13-01-2004 01:56									#18
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Well taken, I guess I took offense to the "POPGUN" version that you mention. It does sound like it's belittling our style of play. I guess I'm over sensitive to all the crap MPers usually take for certain SPers. I should know better and not include you in that group. I will take it as a friend offering feedback. And I thought the superior comment was slightly sarcastic.

But despite what the rest of you say, That SSC is a great one, but not the product of understood mechanics, but by what most of us have known for awhile.

I will conceded that trade routes of 40 vs 35 are possilbly a result of more recent trade route research.
I'm sure if we could check back on some of the older threads we would find somoene that came close to this.

BUT I STILL THINK IT"S A GREAT SSC, (even with the one mountain. )

	13-01-2004 02:53									#19
	Got spare money?

Tomato, to-mah-toe, let's call the whole thing off.

Okay!! Let's go get a beer!!

And for the record, was not being sarcastic.

I often wish I had taken the MP plunge. It does indeed sound like fun. Though you do imply that the learning curve is pretty bloody.
But so was I once.

Monk

	13-01-2004 03:17									#20
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Peace, at last!

So often casual remarks or something said with a smile is misinterpreted as a personal attack.

This is a major disadvantage of communicating via these forums.

I have great respect and affection for all who enjoy playing this game, no matter what their playing preference is.

I think if we all met in person, we'd all become and remain the best of friends.

	13-01-2004 03:19									#21
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My OCC #2 city also had 3x +40 routes, with 227 trade arrows. Also had one mountain that I did not get around to terraforming. I wonder if there is an upper limit to either Trade Routes or Trade Arrows? Anybody got a SAV or GIF of a better Super Trade City?

	13-01-2004 04:04									#22
	Increase Your PM Length

A few years back there was a quasi competition for the most beakers. I may be old and going feeble but I do remember 2000+ having been done. I'm too lazy to look for the thread.

And I can honestly say that I've enjoyed meeting ALL the people that I have from this site. It was fun last summer when we had fellow MPers in town and hooked up 3 machines in Ming's family room and played some games. It was highly spirited and quite amusing. Watching over someone's shoulder can be quite enlightening.

And the golf and drinking was great too.

All in all I've met around 20 people from here IRL. I have not regretting meeting any of them, and if anyone is coming through Chicago, with some preplanning, they can also experience the great hospitality that we're famous for.

	13-01-2004 23:48									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Elephant My OCC #2 city also had 3x +40 routes, with 227 trade arrows. Also had one mountain that I did not get around to terraforming. I wonder if there is an upper limit to either Trade Routes or Trade Arrows? Anybody got a SAV or GIF of a better Super Trade City?

I had this as an OCC in a CFC game of the month. Routes up to +45 each, and the river squares help immensely. I think Thermopylae was size 12. Sad thing is, by the time it got to this point, it wasn't quite enough beakers to get a tech in one turn.

	14-01-2004 01:20									#24
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I remember that one: it was a flat map and we started in the bottom right corner. You moved up into the forested river system nearer the Greeks. Pretty impressive - you kept Hides free too!

I've played a lot of OCC lately and rarely been above 2,000 beakers doing the SpaceShip techs (I tech-gift pretty strongly, both for KeyCiv beaker reduction as well as "attitude adjustment"). You must have let tech gifting your KeyCiv lapse in the late game. That would add several hundred per tech fairly quickly.

	14-01-2004 02:43									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Elephant I remember that one: it was a flat map and we started in the bottom right corner. You moved up into the forested river system nearer the Greeks. Pretty impressive - you kept Hides free too! I've played a lot of OCC lately and rarely been above 2,000 beakers doing the SpaceShip techs (I tech-gift pretty strongly, both for KeyCiv beaker reduction as well as "attitude adjustment"). You must have let tech gifting your KeyCiv lapse in the late game. That would add several hundred per tech fairly quickly.

I found this note in my posted log...

- producing 2176 beakers, but since I can't gift key civ, I can't turn 1 turn tech and in 2 turns flight will cancel colossus anyway

I think the key civ got wiped out and I couldn't change the order enough to change it to anyone else. I seem to recall only dealing with green, white, blue and orange civs while we were purple. I think I ended up lined up with Yellow or Cyan as my key civ at that point in the game.

	14-01-2004 13:55									#26
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But you also have two engineers supported by that city, which would have been another two Elvii, and even more beakers!

	14-01-2004 21:01									#27
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Tim,

What a delicous city you built!! Those rivered sites with some specials are great fun to work with. Good job.

Monk

	14-01-2004 21:49									#28
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Yes, rivered trade specials. Drools.

It is different to look at it. For MP I'd have build two cities, my cap on the rivered silk and second city on the rivered pheasant. But then, in MP by the time you could build a city like this, the game would have been over for eons.

But what a target to take. *sigh*

RAH

	14-01-2004 22:13									#29
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But thats becouse you play 2x1x, building on silk in 1x prod will set you back a lot.

In 1x1x I would build 2 city's with a bird and silk each.
(But what do I know, I only play MP nowadays since OCC and EL is not my cup of tea and in MP building a SSC will probably get you killed early )

	14-01-2004 23:43									#30
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Yeah, in 1x I would build next to them on the river. And yes, a SSC becomes a target that used a lot of resources to build. But my cap usually becomes a Big Science city but would never qualify for anthing resembling any of the SSCs shown here.