11-01-2004 07:26									#1
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Consuls & FAM:

We need action on this right away. No excuses. Go to mogoose and demand it. Make it happen. Thanks.

	11-01-2004 07:29									#2
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Yes, he's obviously not going to do it without a ruling by Mongoose.

Nice attachment BigFree! That about sums it up.

	11-01-2004 07:30									#3
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I will see if Mongoose pops up on MSN during the next few hours, if not I will e-mail him. I agree that we must get this over with ASAP.

	11-01-2004 17:19									#4
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Sh*t, just e-mail him and get the ball rolling....

* E_T grumbles about the damn lazy Prospective Consul.

Are we going to see atleast a LITTLE bit more inititive from you, IF you get elected??



E_T

	11-01-2004 23:59									#5
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quote: Hello Mongoose, Well, I had hoped not to end up resorting to this but the issue is GCA. We had a chat with them to see under what conditions they would accept peace and obviously put up the most unreasonable demand of giving back all of their land back (as if) and if not they would continue to wage perpetual war against us. As we have told you, we are more than willing to bring up this issue to a UN vote since it is obvious they are doing this crap only to screw us in the most dishonorable way, however, Lucky had said something about you already deciding to force them to make peace (at least in-game). We have sent them peace through the diplo screen and they have rejected it. We would like to know if and when you will ask GCA to make peace with us or if not, so we can put it to vote in the UN. Obviously though, a direct ruling from you would make things so much easier as hopefully these things will not occur in the future with any other team. Well, that is pretty much it, thanks a million! Regards, -MZ

	21-01-2004 22:46									#6
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GCA is acting like the little b*tches they are again:

quote: mongoose says: CGN just sent you the turn... and Lucky has informed me that he has not sent peace... I wasn't aware that there had been attacks recently Master Zen says: attacks? Master Zen says: you mean THEIR attacks? mongoose says: he said they attacked last turn Master Zen says: yeah galley Master Zen says: they lost (first unit they ever lose in offense at we know of) mongoose says: and that CFC attacked them 3 turns ago.. so now, he want's to know how many turns after a battle that they must offer peace mongoose says: "well, sorry to disobey, but you havenŽt answered the main part of my question yet. Namely after how many turns after a battle do we have to offer informal peace to circumvent the WW problem? We have attacked Apolyton last turn (350AD) and to our best knowledge CFC has attacked us 3 turns ago (320AD). (We won of course )" mongoose says: "Now it is even more nonsense to offer peace every time we attack a unit immediatly after it. Not to mention that the attacked team can only see that they were attacked after accepting peace. So, the question is how many turns of "inactivity" have to pass?" mongoose says: "We are still formally at war with both CFC and Poly and will continue to attack them at every chance we get. IIRC, the first suggested number of turns was 10, which is reasonable under the circumstances. Even if we continue to protest against your decision of course. So sorry again to not abide to your ruling just now, but these newest events forbade it now." mongoose says: that's the main part Master Zen says: what a twit mongoose says: "And one more thing, the attack against Poly was against their galley on our new continent. That galley was sailing to our new home, so according to your wording below, they "attacked us across the sea" or at least planned to do that. Just thought IŽd mention that. " mongoose says: the smily was his Master Zen says: still a twit mongoose says: Master Zen says: 1) we started a war AGAINST a civ in our continent Master Zen says: 2) we defeat that civ and he was moved BY ANOTHER NATION to another continent mongoose says: I tried that one..they don't concede defeat Master Zen says: 3) just because we have a galley in their continent does not mean we can actually go and invade them Master Zen says: so what? you made a ruling and they must respect it Master Zen says: if they don't, they can get their pansy ass out of this game and go ruin the C3C ISDG which I don't give a damn about mongoose says: but also, in a way, my hands are tied..if there are attacks occuring, I can legislate them to send peace. I hope you see my position.. how can I make them send peace when they attack? Master Zen says: it's obvious GWT is using them against us mongoose says: I can't venture an opinion there Master Zen says: they are of course in their right to do so Master Zen says: BUT Master Zen says: let's assume they made peace this turn, and they only saw our galley next turn. Would they declare war on us? of course not because those idiots wouldn't risk the WW Master Zen says: what happened was the exact opposite, they saw us just before making peace mongoose says: I understand what you are saying... that's why he asked how many turns. I really think he wants to attack just often enough to stay at war. your galley being there was obviously good luck for them Master Zen says: or rather, good luck to us, they lost mongoose says: well, if it hadn't been there, you might be at peace.. would your rather have one of their galleys dead or full production? Master Zen says: I would rather have peace mongoose says: mongoose says: I was curious about the length of time for his response. I really expected it sooner..they must have taken some time for everyone to throw in some BS mongoose says: notice also how this "10 turns" comes up in the last couple emails... when the only number I have said before was 5.. he is working every angle Master Zen says: he is a twit mongoose says: Is there an echo in here? mongoose says: Master Zen says: yeah, it's pretty loud Master Zen says: I could use other words, but the diplomat inside me refrains from doing so mongoose says: understood. I will send him back an email that the turn number is 5 and we will watch him try and squirm out of it Master Zen says: lol Master Zen says: I will enjoy that Master Zen says: I guess that is all we can do for now mongoose says: ok..well..I have the MZO game turn open..I better finish it and get it sent on mongoose says: see ya Master Zen says: ok, thanks for the news

	21-01-2004 23:15									#7
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Is this guy for real? What kind of person do you have to be in RL to want to try to destroy people's fun in a game just because you lost a war to a superior foe. I think Lucky has some deep issues he needs to see a psychiatrist for.

	22-01-2004 00:59									#9
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They are definitely going to be a PitA about this. But that's no surprise.

I can actually see the logic, btw: if there are units in a position to actually fight, the war is on. Hence the galley battle(s). I've gotta say that makes a certain amount of sense.

-Arrian

	22-01-2004 01:11									#10
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YES, IT WAS A MISTAKE TO SEND OUR GALLEY CLOSE ENOUGH TO THEM SO THAT THEY COULD ATTACK IT.

	22-01-2004 01:22									#11
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Apparently, CFC didn't fair very well against GCA;s Galley that is in the Lake, We need to send our own galleys to the lake via PoV because Equil will be disbanded before we are able to get to that choke point.

* E_T grumbles about sending amatures to do a job that takes the professional touch.

Also, We will have a Vet Galley built in Incensity, but it will be a slow built (growth intensive) and after the Lib is built. Now, we can change to Galley next turn and a Library afterwards, but ofcourse, that will delay the Library for our research effort.

E_T

	22-01-2004 01:29									#12
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I suggest not to build Galleys for a while. We don't really need them (until navigation comes along - then we might need galleys to watch out for enemy ships).

I also suggest to ask a referee to play the GCA turn (if that is at all possible) and offer us accepted peace.

	22-01-2004 01:39									#13
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Wait. What if you want peace... then you have to avoid your enemy for 10 turns?

Lets say theres 100 stack of archers next to your 100 stack of archers and its your turn. In order to get peace you have to run away from 100 stack of archer for 10 turn allowing the stack to do whatever they want (capture city pillage etc) FOR TEN FRIGGIN TURNS?

makes absolutely no sense to me. I understand the idea of the rule. But also its stupid cause its soooo exploitable.

	22-01-2004 01:42									#14
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The fact that they attacked a single Galley on the otherside of the world does not change that we cant 'effectivley' wage war and neither can they. These 'skirmishes' are not really war. We should press mongoose on this issue and see what he syas.

	22-01-2004 01:57									#15
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree YES, IT WAS A MISTAKE TO SEND OUR GALLEY CLOSE ENOUGH TO THEM SO THAT THEY COULD ATTACK IT.

Apparently, they had 3 gallies and they had attacked us with the one (and lost it, while we had gotten a Promotion). At that time, we were right next to 2 other GCA galleys and there was no way that we could have gotten away from them, without going into uncharted waters. Now, We had the option of 4 choices:

1) continue like we did, i.e. move 3 tiles
2) move and fort or just fort where we where
3) attack and try to sink one of the 2 galleys (What I would have pressed for if I had been present at the turnchat) and then forting afterwards (if we had survived).
4) move off into uncharted waters and risk sinking (a crap shoot, but still the possiblity of finding something and surviving).

Because the consuls (present at the time) had gone with option 1 without any consultation from anyone else should have been a call for halting the turn, posting about the situation and seeing if the MoW could be reached. The deed is done and can't be taken back, but IMHO, it reflected a bit of poor judgement at the time.

But the main thing, is that we would have possibly removed GCA assets, that WILL be used in their coming war against CGN. The PoA might still have been sunk, but she would have gone down showing our true spirit of vengence against GCA!

E_T

	22-01-2004 01:58									#16
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My suggestion:

Trip or MZ needs to talk to Mongoose (someone who he's talked to before and has a rapport with). He needs to state the following:

Yes, you did attack Apolyton last turn, but you were suposed to do a temporary peace agreement MANY TURNS AGO that you failed to do, and your actions now do not excuse your past failure.

You are certainly free to redeclare war on Apolyton any turn after you have gone forward with the temporary peace agreement.

This situation does not change my prior ruling on the issue.

... long story short, our man needs to hold firm to his decision and GCA needs to comply with it.

--Togas

	22-01-2004 02:11									#17
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree The fact that they attacked a single Galley on the otherside of the world does not change that we cant 'effectivley' wage war and neither can they. These 'skirmishes' are not really war. We should press mongoose on this issue and see what he syas.

Our Main Argument for asking for peace is because of the fact that we can't attack them and they can't attack us. With that galley still in our area, the point is moot, because, given time, still be able to attack them. We don't know if there are units on that ship. We don't know what they are planning to do with that ship. But until it's eliminated, we (by all rights) can't make the arguments that we have been making, that we want the peace because of the fact that neither one of us can attack the other. With that Galley being present in our area, that just isn't the case.

So, we need to get it killed, ASAP. We also need to know, from CFC if GCA had dropped units off of it and if they got back onto it again. Part of this is the providence of the FAM and part ours with respect to killing that Galley ASAP.

Questions that the FAM also has to ask CFC, will they be willing to wait a little bit longer for the Equil handoff?? Do they have another Galley build in the works (or have one ready to move into the lake, right after the galley hand off)?

I can still change the build in Equil to a Galley and then do the Settler, but then, CFC will have to wait 30 more turns (at most) OR they will have to pay for us to rush build the settler. I need to know, for the worker orders will depend on this desision.

MoI E_T

	22-01-2004 02:41									#18
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We should just do the declare war on cfc and sign peace thingy.

	22-01-2004 03:56									#19
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IMHO, regardless of the galley attack, us and GCA are still in a position where niether side can effectively wage war against once another as neither of us has Navigation. The fact that we had one galley over there from our initial "suicide galley" attempt for find the other continent does not change this fact. having the galley there was a mistake as it ties Mongooses hands to some extent.

We need to get an answer from Mongoose on whether he will fonce peace immediate despite the galley attack or require us to wait a few turns,

	22-01-2004 05:00									#20
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THERE IS STILL A GCA GALLEY IN THE INTERIOR SEA!!!

This will have an effect on the fact that we can still (with time) engage that unit.

E_T

	22-01-2004 07:39									#21
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That GCA galley could also camp out in the waters off Power of Victory, or Equilibrium, or LakeView. That would prevent WW from decreasing, I think (haven't tested with boats).

If GCA raises that as an issue, I can't see compelling them to do anything. The ball would be in our court to sink the scow or muddle on with never ending WW.

	22-01-2004 07:40									#22
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quote: Originally posted by E_T Apparently, CFC didn't fair very well against GCA;s Galley that is in the Lake, We need to send our own galleys to the lake via PoV because Equil will be disbanded before we are able to get to that choke point.

Why don't we delay the disbanding? I don't think CFC would mind if the intention is to sink that damn galley.

	22-01-2004 08:37									#23
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I say forget trying to come up with a set of rules, and just let common sense prevail.


Mongoose is on our side...
If we are even perceived to be considering 5/10 turns or acknowledge that our galley is a continuation of the war or acknowledge that we have to kill that galley in the lake, then GCA will continually exploit the UN's rules to ensure they never give peace.

Just present a well written post in the main UN forum saying that we are appalled that GCA are resorting to the use of an exploit.

We thought common sense, decency, and fair play would ensure GCA would declare peace, and are disappointed that they would stoop to such levels.

Ask for a common sense ruling that says it is obvious that the war is over, and GCA be forced to declare peace. They either do it on the next turn, or Mongoose does it for them.



If we waiver on this point...even if we are perceived to be even considering rules... then we will be always on the back foot.

Do this head on...Call them a cheat and demand Mongoose play their turn.
In otherwords... release Bigfree onto the UN

	22-01-2004 10:09									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel We thought common sense, decency, and fair play would ensure GCA would declare peace, and are disappointed that they would stoop to such levels. Ask for a common sense ruling that says it is obvious that the war is over, and GCA be forced to declare peace. They either do it on the next turn, or Mongoose does it for them. If we waiver on this point...even if we are perceived to be even considering rules... then we will be always on the back foot.

Agreed. Especially the part about avoiding making "rules" or agreeing to some new rules that Lucky will surely exploit.

Bottom line is that their intent is to abuse the game mechanics. There can be no debate about that.

--Togas

	22-01-2004 12:31									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Do this head on...Call them a cheat and demand Mongoose play their turn. In otherwords... release Bigfree onto the UN

* BigFree gets his hat and gloves ready for a trip...

	22-01-2004 23:03									#26
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Round 2

quote: Master Zen says: heya mongoose says: greetings Master Zen says: any news from the GCA front? mongoose says: nothing yet.... Mainly because I neglected to send the email... didn't expect the turn to get around so quick ... I'm sending it tonight Master Zen says: yeah, I'm kinda surprised it came so fast Master Zen says: btw, I was thinking mongoose says: first time for everything mongoose says: Master Zen says: I wish the slap command were here mongoose says: sorry, it was too obvious to pass up Master Zen says: yeah, I noticed Master Zen says: anyway, back to my t hinking Master Zen says: GCA has a galley in our sea Master Zen says: the inland sea Master Zen says: locked with no possiblity of getting out mongoose says: really?..hmmm Master Zen says: now, you know Lucky, he'll always try and find a way to keep us in war. Now since, we could theoretically attack that galley, he can basically argue that we can "still be at war with them" until we destroy that galley Master Zen says: at least following the rather twisted line of reasoning of his mongoose says: he will say anything..and I'm sure it makes sense to him mongoose says: have they been moving the galley..or is it fortified? Master Zen says: he's been moving it Master Zen says: anyway, my point is, knowing LUcky, I think we should force the issue. I mean, you and I know that for all intents and purposes this war is over Master Zen says: he can make a galley war as long as he wants but that's not the point. You called for a ruling for peace and he disobeyed it. He can continue to disobey these things as long as there's aloophole Master Zen says: and that galley is all the loophole he needs mongoose says: I know...I wish I could understand why he feels everything has to be so difficult. I dread getting on my computer sometimes because of people pulling **** like this and thinking they are the good guy. I'll send him an email that 5 turns is the magic number, not the 10 he wants... also..this is also what he is trying to get me to commit to: he wants this ruling to go for any war, no matter what the circumstances Master Zen says: which is silly mongoose says: I know it, and I have explained it time and time again Master Zen says: one guy in our posted posted the rather real example of starting a war, then pulling back for 5 turns Master Zen says: then forcing peace mongoose says: yeah Master Zen says: I'll say it again, he's a twit. And twits only understand until things are shoved down his throat Master Zen says: if he wants to play hardball, we play back Master Zen says: hell, I wouldn't be arguing this if I didn't know if this came to a UN vote, it'd pass. I know CFC or CGN would not stand to this crap mongoose says: yes, but every other vote has been 2/3 rds.. that would not pass Master Zen says: it'd be 3 vs 2 mongoose says: which is only 60 percent... not 66 Master Zen says: ah, we need 66? mongoose says: yes... we can't change the vote requirements midstream... that's the only reason he called for a vote before Master Zen says: doh, I thought it was 50 +1 mongoose says: I wish it were so, but that's not the way I worded the previous polls... if only I could see the future mongoose says: I would have joined a team! Master Zen says: but we can't mongoose says: Master Zen says: bah, I don't complain. You've done a good job, and I very much understand that this admin job is not easy Master Zen says: then again, this ISDG is truly unprecedented. I'm not quite sure that we could have done better other than with the benefit of hindsight, something that we never have when starting an ordeal of this magnitude mongoose says: I must say..that I didn't think it would be this..... what's the word...well, taxing, I guess. .. And I'm not going to complain too much, I have met some wonderful people I never would have met otherwise. Master Zen says: like Lucky mongoose says: yes..he's my favorite Master Zen says: oh well, eventually even Lucky's arm will twist mongoose says: perhaps so..or maybe he will just wake up one morning and be agreeable... or maybe i can summon 20 girls with a mere gesture... mongoose says: hehe Master Zen says: maybe you can, just not the girls you would want mongoose says: aye, there's the rub

	22-01-2004 23:10									#27
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Okay, IMO, this has gone on long enough. I'm going to start a poll about making war then immediate peace with CFC to erase our War Weariness so these games don't keep going on.

	23-01-2004 01:29									#28
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MZ: Ask mogosse about the 66% requirement. He says a standard was set by himself a while back. Where in the rules does it say that teams eliminated form the game no longer have a vote? I know it's silly, but since it doesn't say it anywhere, why can't they? My point is is that there's many things ot lined out by the rules per se. He HAS to make rulings based upon what he thinks is fair and reasonable and not wholly based upon what has happened in the past. Situations change. What if GWT and GCA were to use some other technique/exploit that has not been previously discussed? Just because we don't have the 2/3's needed to make a rule against it does not mean that they should be allowed to use that technique.

mongoose needs to make a ruling and stand by it. This is one of those cases where a precedent, set by him, when there were more teams in the game, should be changed because there are less teams now.

	23-01-2004 01:31									#29
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Also, I say we hold the turn the next time we get it until we get a peace offer from GCA. I see that as our only bargaining chip at this point. We tell CGN and CFC what we are up to and let GWT/GCA moan about it until they are blue in the face. Screw 'em!

	23-01-2004 03:25									#30
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The 66% is a bit too much now. Basically every vote would have to pass with 4 vs 1 for it to work. It is rather inefficient with the current number of teams.