15-01-2004 09:05									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Elok We're making LOTS of Protestant converts these days, Ben. My church was founded only ten years ago by an entire episcopal church that converted en masse, including the priest. There were nineteen founding members. There are now over three hundred of us. I'm one of the twenty or so grown members of the parish who were baptized Orthodox at birth. There are a lot of speculative reasons. Partially, it has something to do with the modern attack on true religion; being the most ancient and unchanged of the Christian churches, Orthodoxy is more difficult to attack with modern cynicism. Also, the increasingly silly "low-church" services prevalent in some parts of protestantism are making some people hungry for a more traditional church, where there are no powerpoint presentations in church and nobody would ever dare to refer to their savior as "my homey J.C." Those are the two big reasons I can think of. To take advantage of LotM's blatant threadjack, Orthodoxy is sort of like Catholicism with a more Jewish attitude towards life.

About ten years ago the Protestant Episcopal Church began allowing the ordination of women. Could that have been one of the main reasons for this particular exodus en masse? It certainly wasn't the overly informal nature of Episcopalian services. After a brief fling with removing any referrence to Christ's gender in the 1970s PECUSA returned to a format in the 1983 Book of Common Prayer that was just a little more streamlined than that of the 1926 version.

	15-01-2004 09:11									#32
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Well, I find that religion is much more fun as long as you don't take it too seriously.

	15-01-2004 10:00									#33
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Well, I find that religion is much more fun as long as you don't take it too seriously.

(beats )

That, my friend, is the right attitude to have. If we could all just enjoy the beauty of icons and idols, while ignoring the needless "worship" aspect... we'd have it made in the shade!

	15-01-2004 10:16									#34
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Dr. Strangelove:

That's sort of what I was referring to, though in a much more oblique fashion.

cinch:

If you want entertainment, there are better places to go than church.

	15-01-2004 10:21									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi cinch: If you want entertainment, there are better places to go than church.

Oh, certainly... but why limit myself to cake when there's plenty of pie to go around?

(I don't expect that to make any sense to anyone, least of all myself. I apologize.)

	15-01-2004 11:00									#36
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Usually religion is also much more spiritually rewarding when you don't take it totally seriously. Just taking everything in a religion as literally true without much thought doesn't provide as much spirtual satisfaction as taking religion as mixed bag, and searching for the great truths that exist in that religion and then applying those truths to your own life. True enlightenment will ultimately come from within, but religion can either be a great supplement or a great first step.

I mean no slight to any of our staunch religious folk of course. If a more literal view of religious texts brings them closer to God, then I am all for it.

	15-01-2004 11:06									#37
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Monkspider:

No offense taken by you. I know where you're coming from.

	15-01-2004 19:30									#38
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Well, no offense taken, MS (if I were that easy to offend I would have been banned thrice by now for swearing at the atheists), but fun or no, you might want to bear in mind that the point of religion isn't to have fun, or even necessarily to be "spiritually fulfilled," to use the smarmy modern phrase...

And yeah, Ben, I was thinking of the modern splits w/canon law too, but I didn't want this thread to turn into an argument about gay marriage or female clergy or whatever so I kept my mouth shut. I was thinking more of the evangelicals or whatever they're called when I referred to the increasing silliness of services. My ex-sister-in-law went to a Baptist or SB church where they had christian rock concerts IN THE SANCTUARY, of all places. Right in front of the altar. Plus the VBS kids put on their annual pageant there. Maybe that's common in Protestantism, idunno. I'm as ignorant about other forms of Christianity as they are about Orthodoxy. Until a few months ago I thought the doctrine of the Blood Atonement was limited to the most wacko fundamentalists, but I'm told most of the Christian world believes in it.

	15-01-2004 22:25									#39
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Serbian Orthodox

better form of christianity...

	16-01-2004 01:08									#40
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Elok,

My Catholic church would have pageants and choral concerts and such in the sanctuary of the church. But of course the actual mass is very ritualized, and not like a protestant service.

Actually, I'm not sure on how all protestant services go. I've been to a few, and I'm not sure if they are standard or weird. One they had a big screen TV up front and we watched Horton Hears a Who, then the band (which my housemate plays in) played some songs, and there was other stuff. Seemed cool, but definately *did not* feel like church.

	16-01-2004 01:15									#41
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Also, I think Catholicism might still be shaking off some bad PR over the last 2000 years. The impressions of doom and gloom and sin and hell that Eddie Izzard and others have doesn't match up with my experiences at all. I can't even remember a priest talking about, or even mentioning, hell during mass.

I went to a Baptist service once and that was the whole focus of the sermon. "Hell is a lake of burning fire, and if you are a sinner you will burn for eternity."

I've been to lots of Catholic churches and I have *never* heard anything like that. Usually stuff like 'getting closer to Jesus' and 'stewardship'. If you don't mind the ritual, you should give Catholicism another look. Not saying its your thing, but it just isn't doom and gloom (at least in my experiences.)

	16-01-2004 10:38									#42
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quote: I'm as ignorant about other forms of Christianity as they are about Orthodoxy.

Then we've got our work cut out for us, eh?

Ozzy:

When I went to see my girlfriend this summer, they had a visiting priest. The focus of his homily, was the importance of being able to accept communion to your salvation. She was so apologetic after the mass for the fire and brimstone homily, and I just looked at her and said, why should I be? It's what I get in my church anyway.

	17-01-2004 00:32									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Serbian Orthodox better form of christianity...

Well, so long as you've dropped some of the antagonism you have toward your roots, I'd like to wish you a happy belated nameday. Hey, I'm only two days behind on an event for once.

And I do know (this is directed to Ozzy et al.) that there's a lot of variety among various forms of Christianity. I'm just guarding against the "Ortho-shock" that occurs whenever one of us makes a statement about christian belief only to find out that most of Christianity thinks differently. That happens pretty frequently. In fact, my Khouria (priest's wife-it's an arabic title) once asked a Greek bishop a question about the aforementioned Blood Atonement doctrine, and the bishop had no idea what she was talking about. At first he thought she was joking. It took a while before he stopped asking her, "are you telling me they actually believe THAT?" with a stupefied look on his face. It's the price one pays for being "cradle" Orthodox like me; you have no idea how unusual your system of beliefs really is.

	17-01-2004 02:52									#44
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ON THIS ROCK, I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH!!!!

	17-01-2004 21:10									#45
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Oh, please. You guys lost the original rock centuries ago.

	17-01-2004 21:27									#46
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The Petrarchan theory! The bishop of rome. Rome is the prime.

	17-01-2004 23:54									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Then we've got our work cut out for us, eh? Ozzy: When I went to see my girlfriend this summer, they had a visiting priest. The focus of his homily, was the importance of being able to accept communion to your salvation. She was so apologetic after the mass for the fire and brimstone homily, and I just looked at her and said, why should I be? It's what I get in my church anyway.

Well I suppose there are fire and brimstone Catholic churches out there, I've just never come across them. Not that I've been trapped in liberal bastions my whole life, I've been to lotsa different churches. I never saw it though.

Could there be touchy-feely Baptists too?

	18-01-2004 00:14									#48
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quote: Originally posted by TCO The Petrarchan theory! The bishop of rome. Rome is the prime.

And Dubya is the equal of George Washington via "Democratic Sucession?" Sorry, I'm not buying it. We give him great respect for the revered post he occupies, but the pope is NOT St. Peter, and even St. Peter did not possess unilateral authority over the entire church like the pope has over catholicism and asks from the rest of us.
Note also that Peter said nothing about the Immaculate Conception. But his friends and advisors weren't formalized and wearing red hats, so I guess he could have been wrong.

	18-01-2004 00:23									#49
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quote: Originally posted by TCO ON THIS ROCK, I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH!!!!

Let's do it.

	18-01-2004 00:42									#50
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THE ROCK!!!!!

And you took your orders just fine for 1000 years.

	18-01-2004 00:51									#51
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On a serious note though, most Christian churches really suck, and suck bad:

1) They are boring as hell
2) There is no spirituality whatsoever
3) They are way too judgemental

	18-01-2004 00:54									#52
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No, we didn't. We spent the first two centuries or so building your church up from the ground, and the next eight growing apart from you and trying to ignore an increasingly bossy pope. The pope began claiming authority that traditionally was never his. During the first seven ecumenical councils (we don't acknowledge Vatican, etc., seeing as we weren't there), he had roughly the same position as the U.S. Speaker of the House. He got respect, but he was still only one voice in the crowd. His spot is roughly filled by the Patriarch of Constantinople today.

We have apostolic succession too, but sitting in St. Peter's seat doesn't make him St. Peter's equal, especially when he starts expressing ideas that would have horrified the original Cephas. The Treasury of Merit comes to mind, in addition to that recent announcement that the Virgin Mary is "as instrumental to salvation as the trinity itself" or something.

	18-01-2004 00:57									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker On a serious note though, most Christian churches really suck, and suck bad: 1) They are boring as hell 2) There is no spirituality whatsoever 3) They are way too judgemental

The same is true of the Supreme Court. What's your point?

	18-01-2004 01:05									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Elok No, we didn't. We spent the first two centuries or so building your church up from the ground, and the next eight growing apart from you and trying to ignore an increasingly bossy pope. The pope began claiming authority that traditionally was never his. During the first seven ecumenical councils (we don't acknowledge Vatican, etc., seeing as we weren't there), he had roughly the same position as the U.S. Speaker of the House. He got respect, but he was still only one voice in the crowd. His spot is roughly filled by the Patriarch of Constantinople today. We have apostolic succession too, but sitting in St. Peter's seat doesn't make him St. Peter's equal, especially when he starts expressing ideas that would have horrified the original Cephas. The Treasury of Merit comes to mind, in addition to that recent announcement that the Virgin Mary is "as instrumental to salvation as the trinity itself" or something.

He is still first. BOW!

	18-01-2004 01:09									#55
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If we're going by who's "first," he was Bishop of Antioch, and established the church there with St. Paul, long before he was Bishop of Rome. Any more boasting to be shot down?

	18-01-2004 01:11									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Elok The same is true of the Supreme Court. What's your point?

What are you talking about?

The POINT which I thought was obvious, is that nobody wants to go to the churches for the reasons I mentioned. The churches also have lost all meaning when there is no spirituality involved in them.

	18-01-2004 01:11									#57
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He is first among equals. He is better then the ortho bishop. Kicks his azz.

	18-01-2004 01:20									#58
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Jeez. "Boring" is irrelevant, spirituality is subjective, and what do you call judgmental, if not a blanket statement that the majority of a belief system followed by like a third of the planet sucks?

TCO: Are you actually Catholic, or just irritating me because there's nothing on TV? You said it yourself: first among equals. He has no right to decide the fate and action of our bishops all by himself, and if we don't follow the orders he insists on giving, which all reason and precedent dictates we shouldn't, what's the point of "following" him at all? We have Holy Synods for a reason. It doesn't matter if two or three are gathered in His name if one of them is just calling all the shots and the others quietly following. If the Pope were St. Peter himself we wouldn't give him the authority you ascribe to him. Not that he'd ask for it.

	18-01-2004 01:22									#59
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I just like teasing you. I am a member of the CE sect of the Church.

	18-01-2004 01:26									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Elok Jeez. "Boring" is irrelevant, spirituality is subjective, and what do you call judgmental, if not a blanket statement that the majority of a belief system followed by like a third of the planet sucks?

I'm not talking about the belief system silly

i'm talking about the individual chuches themselves

who wants to listen to some old man make me feel guilty for an hour

inspire me. but don't condemn me for not following a bunch of rigid rules