14-01-2004 14:08									#1
	Thinking about converting to Orthodoxism Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Well, here I am asking Apolyton for advice.

I am tired of Protestantism. While there could be a really good Protestant church out there somewhere, 90% of them are crap. Most churches, we have found, are obsessed with what I think of as "fluffy" topics, stuff that has no spiritual value like discussing community gossip, bad-mouthing gays, or just your run of the mill "Worship Jesus, and you won't go to hell" routine. The lack of structure in Protestantism usually results in just totally worthless services, at least for us.

Catholicism is not my style. If I could convince my fiance to go to a Buddhist temple, that would be a really good bet, but I don't think I could. I always pictured Orthodoxism as sort of "Catholicism lite", featuring a lot of the good things about Catholicism, but not as many of the bad things.

The main things Orthodoxism has going for it is cool architecture (there are some beautiful Orthodox churches around here), that it doesn't seem as heavy and depressing as Catholicism, and that it just seems like it would be fun to be Orthodox.

Would anyone like to share their thoughts? Any big downsides to Orthodoxism that I may not be aware of?

	14-01-2004 14:12									#2
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I never found Catholic masses or a Catholic education to be either "heavy" or "depressing"

Rather, I've found what few Protestant sermons I've heard boring.

	14-01-2004 14:13									#3
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Go Epicopalian

aka The real catholic lite: All of the ritual, none of the guilt.*

*- or you could be a real commie and go atheist.

	14-01-2004 14:14									#4
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Er? Buddhism is "funner"

	14-01-2004 14:18									#5
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Yeah, I love Buddhism, but it would be too much for my fiance.

Thanks for the suggestions so far folks.

	14-01-2004 14:54									#6
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monkspider:

Send Elok a pm, since I know he is one of the Orthodox folks on the forum and he can fill you in more on what they believe.

As for Catholicism, there can be real community spirit, and a concern about spiritual matters, but the problem is the amount of time that they spend in the homily, 15 minutes is not enough for me. Instead, many more find small groups to study the bible, or do a rosary, in addition to the time they spend on Sundays.

In my own case, I would ask if you have ever been in a Mennonite church. They are pacifist, and would suit your beliefs better than some of the other protestant denominations. I've had some excellent pastors, but I don't really know what you have already done, and where you have already been.

Send me a PM if you want to discuss this further, it tends to be a little more conducive to this type of discussion.

	14-01-2004 15:14									#7
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Don't go to any church. Simple.

-Jam

	14-01-2004 15:50									#8
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The entertainment value of a church tends to depend on the charisma of the person preaching there.

If there are a number of churches in easy distance of you try them in turn and, with luck, you may find a preacher who can hold your attention.

	14-01-2004 16:54									#9
	Re: Thinking about converting to Orthodoxism Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by monkspider ...The main things Orthodoxism has going for it is cool architecture (there are some beautiful Orthodox churches around here)...

A church isn't the building - the church is the body of worshippers.

I mean, on your criteria, the Haji Sofia, Taj Mahal or St Peter's would be your top destinations - I just can't see the point of changing your belief system to suit your aesthetic taste!

quote: Originally posted by monkspider ...that it doesn't seem as heavy and depressing as Catholicism...

Of course not! Catholicism is designed to condemn you to hellfire eternally unless you repent (and give all your money to a guy with a pointy hat).

Mind you, Orthodox is GRIM compared to Evangelism or a bunch of Gospel singers, both of which are also happy to take your money.

quote: Originally posted by monkspider ... and that it just seems like it would be fun to be Orthodox. Would anyone like to share their thoughts? Any big downsides to Orthodoxism that I may not be aware of?

You're CRAZY!!!!! Have you ANY IDEA of the amount of germs and bacteria you can get from kissing old relics (and old clerics, come to that).

How's about finding a religion that actually meets your belief system (and doesn't demand your money).

Even better, go Pagan, Wicca or Voodoo. Or all three.

	14-01-2004 19:10									#10
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Well I lived in an orthodox country (Greece) for 3 years and I had the opportunity to observe some orthodoxy in action...For what it's worth, here's a try at recollection:

The obvious thing is of course they reject catholicism and whatever other branch you have that came into being in reaction to catholicsm as some kind of false path, and the pope is considered as some kind of heretic. He visited Greece last year and oh my, there was some commotion, apparently he was the first pope to do so in some centuries if not the very first one.

Accordingly, in ancient times christianity had one generally agreed institutional esablishment, who had its liturgy in ancient Greek and had its head (patriarch) in historical Constantinople, where the Roman emperors lived from Constantine onwards. So when the western archbishops gradually bunched up around Rome and formally 'divided' the faith in 1054 (?), they considered the 'new' church as heresy. Of course, the guy who now called himself the pope returned the accusation back on what now started to be called 'orthodoxy' (meaning 'true way, true path' in Greek, IIRC)...The patriarch is still in modern day Istanbul, but with much less spiritual authority as compared to the pope...

The eastern half of the Roman empire being later dubbed Byzantine, the orthodox church therefore considers itself as inheritor of the Byzantine legacy. The churches in Greece fly the imperial Byzantine eagle next to the Greek flag, I don't know if it's the same elsewhere in the orthodox world...I know the Moscow church once considered itself the 3rd Rome: Rome and historical Constantinople having fallen to infidels centuries ago, and that the Russian imperial eagle is derived from the Byzantine one...

So, I mean history is emphasised very strongly in orthodoxy. Coming from the West, you might even discern of a subconscious resentment of being cheated from (worldly and spiritual) glory by not only the powers of other faiths but also by 'renegade' branches of christianity. This observation is of course totally subjective, and even if it were accurate it does not mean in any way that it deduces from the spiritual experience you can find in this faith if you choose to convert to it

What more...Priests have tremendous public influence, they show up in nearly all official occasions to bless the crowd, the top archbishop has a very high protocol rank, maybe comparable to a state minister. They have a tendency to express (sometimes forceful) opinion about domestic and foreign policy, much more than the case is in rest of the christian world, at least this was my impression coming from a staunchly secular country. Then again, my experience in Greece might not be representative of the whole picture. Maybe some Russian, Serbian, Bulgarian or any other orthodox guy can correct/complement me here

What other daily life details...Priests have long beards (I know I said too many 'priests' in this post, but I saw so many of them so frequently, I can't help but mention them in what's largely a secular perspective)...They can marry, but if they do so they can't promote beyond a certain level...Easter is much more important than christmas. Icons are also very important, some icons are believed to have strong spiritual powers, when people kiss such an icon, they do it in a truly enthralled manner. I remember a huge crowd before a church when there was an ancient icon visiting from Jerusalem.

The young people are not particularly religious (like probably everywhere), but those who are religious live an intense experience of spirituality, butressed by lots of ancient rituals and music (which for me was very pleasant and reminded me of home, in a pleasantly strange way).

These are some observations from a non-Christian, so they surely need to be complemented by people who can make a comparison about doctrinal differences, which is probably what you might want to know if you'll convert

	14-01-2004 19:51									#11
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I don't think that it will get you in with MarkG

Jon Miller

	14-01-2004 21:07									#12
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I don't think it's a good idea. You don't join the Orthodox Church, because there isn't one in the same sense as ther is a Catholic Church. You can only join an Orthodox nation's Church, which is a different thing.
All orthodox churches went independent when Constantinople fell to the Turks and have been so ever since. I do not know why the Greek Orthodox Church is flying the old imperial flag, but I know this is not the case in the Romanian Orthodox Church.
As far as I know, the ritual is basically the same in all orthodox churches, only it's done in each nation's language. Another minor difference would be that, for instance, the Serbian Orthodox Church still uses the ancient Julian calendar to compute events, so Christmas for instance is sometime in january for them, and I heard that russians also have a similar delay.

The reason why an orthodox priest has more influence in society is that the orthodox church still is an institution of the State, as opposed to the Catholic Church that gave up such a role (after being the State itself for a while). The orthodox ritual is more complex and has more bells and whistles than the catholic one just for this reason: it is a population control tool. The peasants can see for themselves the priest performing all sorts of strange rituals, hence the priest must have some sort of divine connection. They can also see the king (or the local representative) standing side by side with the priest, and so he must also have a special connection with the heavens.
Well, so much for the priests. Oh, they are also required to get married before being ordained. At least the lower ranks are. The bishops and patriarchs are said to continue the work of the Apostles, which implies celibacy (just like ALL catholic priests are).
As for the icons, that is another story. Both Orthodox and Catholic people have a thing for them, but they go against the biblical commandment referring to idolatry. At they do if you are a fundamentalist. Modern churches have found a way around that (I'm too tired to remember the explanation now, but I've heard similar reasoning from both catholic and orthodox priests). Well, anyway, one of the Bizantine emperors once decided to turn fundamentalist and ordered all icons, statues etc. taken out from churches and destroyed. The man is still remembered as the Iconoclast (destroyer of icons, IIRC). After he died, the patriarch of Constantinople made icons legal again. While the priesthood had followed the emperor's orders, the peasants simply could not understand this, and just hid the icons instead of destroying them. When they were allowed to use them again, they rushed to their local church and placed the icons at the altar. From then on, there has always been a wall of icons hiding the altar in an orthodox church.
As for the spiritual powers of the icons, yes, many people believe most of them can perform miracles. There is one such icon in my home town. I don't know if it actually performs miracles, but it has a nice story attached to it. Nobody knows who the artist that made it was, but it is the work of a very talented person. I have seen it, it is beautiful, and it has a very nice silver frame. I was found burried at the root of a tree about 200 years ago, after a particularly bad period of time: the prince who was supposed to rule at the time didn't even bother to come and actually rule (he bribed the sultan for ackowledgement, assasinated his predecessor and then went to Istanbul to spent the family fortune). The country was without any form of central government for several years (until the next assasination) and bandits took the opportunity to expand their business. The region of my home town was hit harder than others: in the course of one summer all major towns have been looted and my home town had been burned to the ground. When that lazy bastard was assasinated in his turn and his successor actually came and started to act like a real tyrant, the bandits were caught one by one and order began to settle again. That's when this icon was found, and people took it as a sign. My home town was rebuilt and a beautiful church now stands where the icon was found. I am not sure the old stump in the church yard is the tree from the story, but that's what I have always been told.
As far as the spiritual experience goes, it's the same as in any religion, as long as you put your heart into it.
I don't know how it went for other Orthodox Churches, but it took the Romanian Orthodox Church about 200 years (from the early 1700s to just before WW1) to reform: everything, from the the degree official calendar in use, to the language used in schools or during the religious service to marriage and divorce and other aspects of the daily life, came into discussion and on few occasions almost sparked a civil war. Much of the controversy, however, came from political sources and not religious ones: the patriarch of Moscow didn't like the thought of a strong Orthodox Church outside his jurisdiction (third Rome and all that). Even the Greek patriarch didn't like the idea of reform. I have read reference to a letter from around 1840 in which the Romanian patriarch was threatened with eternal torment in hell if he allowed priests and teachers to use romanian language while doing their duties. Only greek was deemed appropriate. Such interference didn't have much effect, as the greatest Romanian intellectuals of the time were actively supporting reform and they eventually won.

	14-01-2004 22:29									#13
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Don't be ignorant. The idea of Orthodoxy as an expression of national identity rather than faith is only a result of decades of excessively insular behavior by various enclaves. After the Muslims axed constantinople and the commies took moscow, it's only natural that the church should become splintered and subject to the same postmodern hipster cynicism you're spouting. The Orthodox in America behave differently, anyway. Note also that our less centralized organization helped us avoid the rampant corruption that hit the Catholics way back when. Bottom line: we all believe the same thing, we just say it in different languages. Ignore the vampire.

There is a fairly strong Antiochian Orthodox presence in Wichita, KS, which I would guess is the most convenient for you, Monkspider. The Antiochians generally aren't as devout as, say, the greeks, but they're usually very welcoming to converts or outsiders. I go to an "Antiochian" church that's 80 or 90 percent Protestant converts. You'll have to check the phone book since I don't know specifics, but feel free to drop in and visit the local church. They should be quite friendly.

For an idea of what we believe...oh man. It's hard to sum it up, especially as a lot of what distinguishes us from the Catholics is attitude. We're mystical; no transsubstantiation, purgatory, or other little details filled in by debate and concensus. If we don't have a specific biblical answer to a question, we let it be. In America at least, we're actually quite reluctant to get involved in politics, much more so than the Catholics. In the old countries it's just traditional for the church to play a broader part. We oppose any change in doctrine whatsoever, but with little fanaticism. Our attitude is of stalwart defense of the truth, without yelling, screaming or throwing rocks. Try to find a copy of Kallistos Ware's "The Orthodox Way" if you want an introduction. It might make your head explode if you read it all at once though.

Hope some of that helped.

	14-01-2004 22:44									#14
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Good. I hoped you would see the thread.

quote: I go to an "Antiochian" church that's 80 or 90 percent Protestant converts.

Why this makeup? What would be some of the motivations behind all the protestant converts?

	14-01-2004 23:37									#15
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Sounds good, thanks Elok!

	14-01-2004 23:45									#16
	Re: Thinking about converting to Orthodoxism Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by monkspider The main things Orthodoxism has going for it is cool architecture (there are some beautiful Orthodox churches around here), that it doesn't seem as heavy and depressing as Catholicism, and that it just seems like it would be fun to be Orthodox. Would anyone like to share their thoughts? Any big downsides to Orthodoxism that I may not be aware of?

Judaism:
Not heavy or depressing - well loads of optimism, singing and dancing, etc, but also a lot of stuff about oppression and suffering - your call.
Fun - great holidays, including gambling (hanukkah), drinking (purim, and to a lesser degree Passover) masquerades (purim) feasting (er, well, most of the time) etc, etc. Check, definitelty.
Cool architecture - no check, sadly. Most synagogue architecture, both modern and traditional, is boring and derivative.

Might want to give it a whirl though.

	14-01-2004 23:53									#17
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MS - heres a quote to think about while you search

"I am a Jew because the faith of Israel demands of me no abdication of the mind.

I am a Jew because the faith of Israel requires of me all the devotion of my heart.

I am a Jew because in every place where suffering weeps, the Jew weeps.

I am a Jew because at every time when despair cries out, the Jew hopes.

I am a Jew because the word of Israel is the oldest and the newest.

I am a Jew because the promise of Israel is the universal promise.

I am a Jew because, for Israel, the world is not yet completed; men are completing it.

I am a Jew because, above the nations and Israel, Israel places man and his Unity.

I am a Jew because above man, image of the divine Unity, Israel places the divine Unity, and its divinity."

	15-01-2004 00:07									#18
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Monkspider:

I was raised as a Byzantine Catholic (catholic churches in eastern europe which did not become orthodox during the split), am now a practicing Roman Catholic (what most people refer to as "Catholic"), and have many friends who are Orthodox. A few observations.

1. While I find Orthodoxy certainly more spiritual than most strains of Catholicism, I also find Orthodox services pretty depressing. My theory is that the earliest parishoners were constantly worried about the next wave of Mongols or Rus putting an arrow through their necks.

2. I have also found both Orthodox and Byzantine Catholic churches to be based heavily on ethnic ties. In my experience, if you are not a member of the relevant ethnic group, it can be pretty hard to become accepted and fit in.

3. There are many different variations in how Catholicism is practiced. I am a screaming liberal in the eyes of the Catholic Church. My best experiences have come in small faith comunities, often with ties to a local Catholic Worker House or to Pax Christi. Perhaps you might want to investigate these alternatives?

4. I never lost a minute's sleep worrying about kissing icons, or having communion from a spoon for that matter. My faith extends that far at least.

	15-01-2004 00:16									#19
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Argh. DP.

Last edited by Elok on 15-01-2004 at 19:16

	15-01-2004 00:15									#20
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quote: My best experiences have come in small faith comunities, often with ties to a local Catholic Worker House or to Pax Christi.

Same here. I'm very fortunate with my Catholic friends in sharing these sorts of experiences.

	15-01-2004 00:15									#21
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We're making LOTS of Protestant converts these days, Ben. My church was founded only ten years ago by an entire episcopal church that converted en masse, including the priest. There were nineteen founding members. There are now over three hundred of us. I'm one of the twenty or so grown members of the parish who were baptized Orthodox at birth.

There are a lot of speculative reasons. Partially, it has something to do with the modern attack on true religion; being the most ancient and unchanged of the Christian churches, Orthodoxy is more difficult to attack with modern cynicism. Also, the increasingly silly "low-church" services prevalent in some parts of protestantism are making some people hungry for a more traditional church, where there are no powerpoint presentations in church and nobody would ever dare to refer to their savior as "my homey J.C." Those are the two big reasons I can think of.

To take advantage of LotM's blatant threadjack, Orthodoxy is sort of like Catholicism with a more Jewish attitude towards life.

	15-01-2004 00:27									#22
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quote: My church was founded only ten years ago by an entire episcopal church that converted en masse, including the priest.

Might that have something to do with the other problems in the Episcopal church? Many traditionalists have felt abandoned by their own church in the past while.

I'm starting to see the same thing happen in the Anglican diocese here in Vancouver. About 30% of the diocese has dissociated itself from their bishop and now subsist as individual congregations. I've been urging the Catholics to reach out to these people, and encourage them to join the Catholic church, where they will be much better off than by themselves.

quote: Also, the increasingly silly "low-church" services prevalent in some parts of protestantism are making some people hungry for a more traditional church, where there are no powerpoint presentations in church and nobody would ever dare to refer to their savior as "my homey J.C."

Felt that myself, though Willingdon really does not have a choice with a congregation of 1500 people in EACH of the three English services on Sunday. That's why I've found myself going to the Russian service in the same church which keeps a more traditional pattern of worship in keeping with their smaller congregation.

	15-01-2004 01:25									#23
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In my experience the bigger the church is, the less inspirational it is. The smaller churches are better in my opinion. Then again, that may just a Protestant thing. I would bet all those Protestant converts you guys are talking about comes from those large churches in the cities that have lost their personal touch. In case anyone is wondering, I'm one of those evil Baptists that everyone talks about

	15-01-2004 03:17									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Elok To take advantage of LotM's blatant threadjack, Orthodoxy is sort of like Catholicism with a more Jewish attitude towards life.

The guy mentioned Buddism, for goodness sake. Seems like his search is a tad wider than Orthodox Christianity (for obvious reasons it would be confusing if i just called that "Orthodoxy") and i thought he might not have considered my option.

	15-01-2004 03:39									#25
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No problems LoTM. Judiaism is a cool religion, but I don't think it's quite my thing. You make a good case for it though.

BTW, Thanks Elok, Ben, Adam, and everyone else who has commented.

	15-01-2004 03:41									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber In case anyone is wondering, I'm one of those evil Baptists that everyone talks about

The ones that give away PS2s to children for accepting Jesus as their Saviour?

	15-01-2004 04:07									#27
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I feel you should turn Orthy, if only for the beards:



C'mon, that guy looks like he's having a grand ol' time, no?

Eh?

Have you considered becoming a Mohammedan? They reject icons, much like the previously mentioned Leo the Iconoclast. Gotta love those iconoclasts!

	15-01-2004 08:35									#28
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monkspider: You are looking at this in the wrong way. You ought not to pick your religion based on how you would like it to be or what you think fits your style best, but what you think is true.

	15-01-2004 08:59									#29
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Orthodox Theravada Buddhism.

	15-01-2004 09:05									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi monkspider: You are looking at this in the wrong way. You ought not to pick your religion based on how you would like it to be or what you think fits your style best, but what you think is true.

Well, I find that religion is much more fun as long as you don't take it too seriously.