15-01-2004 06:07									#1
	Top twenty newb mistakes Tired of ads?

Despite the fact that Civ has been around for decades and many of the same fundamentals from earlier versions hold today, we still have many new players who show up and have a really hard time even on the easier levels.

So, the point of this thread is for the community to discuss errors common to newbs. We invite opinions and discusssion and yes, newbs to posts savs for the vets to pour over. We will nominate and debate goofs and pratfalls and perhaps finally with a poll we can settle on a top twenty newb mistakes.

I'll start with my favorite dumb thing to do. Building defensive units, especially spearmen. My postion is that you should only build warriors as necessary for police duty. I have played diety level PTW games to an early domination victory without ever building a spearman, pikeman, or musketman. I hold that having a suffcient military to get respect from the AI is important and you can do just that by building horsemen, swordsmen, and later knights for both mobile defense and offense. The only reason to build a spear or pike would be an emergency, which, by its nature, probably occurs due to one or more of the other top twenty gaffes.

#1 Civagoof: Building spearmen

	15-01-2004 07:21									#2
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I don't really agree with that position. I like defensive units because I like mixed armies. A good defense can result in many attacking units throwing themselves uselessly against you while you gather strength. The defensive units also will allow injured attacking units to survive longer which leads to more elite units/armies.

I think the #1 mistake is building your cities too far apart.

	15-01-2004 07:55									#3
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Newbie Mistakes:

1. Not having enough workers to build terrain improvements for a decent infrastructure (or not building T.I.'s at all ).

2. Not building roads between your cities or to foreign civs. This could probably be grouped with 1.

3. Underestimating the power of artillery.

I could come up with more, but I'm feeling lazy.

	15-01-2004 08:18									#4
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Spending too much time/effort/worry over getting or not getting all the Wonders, especially Ancient Age ones. You don't need most of them, and you can always conquer some later. 300 Shields worth of Swordmen and Horses will likely conquer you a few Wonder cities. Set yourself a target or two for Wonders and don't get distracted from those targets if you really want some, but don;t aim to build too many of them.

	15-01-2004 08:19									#5
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I would agree that spearmen are often build when they are not need, but I would say that the number one is misuse of workers.

Spreading cities is not important on Chief. Wasting worker turns and not minning enough and getting roads up are painful at all levels.

	15-01-2004 08:28									#6
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Everyone is making good points!

	15-01-2004 09:19									#7
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Nothing wrong with a few defensive units - I build 2-3 per city so my fighting army can move more freely and quickly.

Also, artillery needs good defensive cover and captured cities need garrisons. I like to have a screening defensive force spread out during an invasion to hold key points.

	15-01-2004 09:40									#8
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im not that good, i usually play monarch and im getting alot better thanks to a few peeps on here, thanks guys, you know who you are, im out rexing the AI like crazy now, or, i at least like to think so, but, i got awhile to go still....

i usually put about 3 or 4 defensive units in my border cities and then one in all the others, maybe an extra in my capitol, and then build alot of horseman, i prefer them cause of the fast movement and retreat ability, if i dont have them or iron, i TRY with archers....

i dont like artillary that much till i get to bombers, ill use them to bomb and get rid of thier luxuries and what not, these my not be good strategys, but, they usually work on monarch, can anyone tell me a usefull strategy for artillary as early as catapult, i wouldnt mind using them, im guessing the are best used with archers and spearmen for defense maybe...?

	15-01-2004 10:00									#9
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Not building enough and underutilising workers is number one for me. This micromanagement becomes even more important as you move up levels.

I also agree that early on you should build warriors instead of spears, but I then start to build defensive uints later. Warriors are cheaper and you need the extra shield for other things early, especially to build settlers in the REXing phase. Risk of attack very early is usually quite low anyway.

	15-01-2004 10:38									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Nothing wrong with a few defensive units - I build 2-3 per city so my fighting army can move more freely and quickly. Also, artillery needs good defensive cover and captured cities need garrisons. I like to have a screening defensive force spread out during an invasion to hold key points.

We are going to have to have a long talk.

	15-01-2004 10:49									#11
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well it works for me.

	15-01-2004 11:22									#12
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This game is simple yet complex... Have a plan and follow through.

Personally, I do build defensive units, but not many and they are always placed in outlying cities where I may be vulnerable to sneak attack.

	15-01-2004 11:48									#13
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick We are going to have to have a long talk.

He might be talking about MP. Defensive units are a perfectly legitimate choice in MP.

	15-01-2004 13:32									#14
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Both jimmytrick and AH are right. Defensive units are an absolute must in MP. But except a couple of key point border garrisons, they are a waste of upkeep in SP. After entering Republic, I usually disband all my Spearmen except a small bunch (6-10), holding small stacks of mobile units in reach of the borders. That's enough against the AI.

Overall "don't build enough workers / neglect on tile improvement" is for sure the absolute #1 newbie mistake.

	15-01-2004 14:30									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Both jimmytrick and AH are right. Defensive units are an absolute must in MP. But except a couple of key point border garrisons, they are a waste of upkeep in SP.

Exactly what I was thinking reading jt's introductory post. No or very few defensive units might work against the AI, but will fail in 95% of all cases against (skilled) humans.

I believe we should make clear we want to speak about SP here only. MP and PBEM are quite different beasts.

	15-01-2004 17:25									#16
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Besides not using workers properly, the next biggest mistake is building too many improvements and not enough troops!

	15-01-2004 17:49									#17
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I believe that newbies tend to underevaluate the importance of alliances,on higher levels in the past I have often found useful to have one allied,possibly far from my lands

Gunter

	15-01-2004 17:57									#18
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quote: [SIZE=1]I'll start with my favorite dumb thing to do. Building defensive units, especially spearmen.

What about on an archipelago map? Paying for high mobility would seem to be a waste there.

[ok]

	15-01-2004 18:05									#19
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The biggest mistake that I've noticed newbies making is paying way too much attention to the map and not enough attention to the diplomacy screen.

Diplomacy alone can determine technology leads, Gold per Turn trades, resource availibilty, alliances (MPPs, too), and (early on) contact with other civs.

I've seen some people not open the diplomacy screen until they were at war . You need to negotiate with all Civs (both human and AI) as soon as possible, if you don't you will get 'ganged-up' on and smeared.

	15-01-2004 18:44									#20
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quote: Originally posted by KenderBane The biggest mistake that I've noticed newbies making is paying way too much attention to the map and not enough attention to the diplomacy screen. Diplomacy alone can determine technology leads, Gold per Turn trades, resource availibilty, alliances (MPPs, too), and (early on) contact with other civs. I've seen some people not open the diplomacy screen until they were at war . You need to negotiate with all Civs (both human and AI) as soon as possible, if you don't you will get 'ganged-up' on and smeared.

Even this statement is very true,I did the same mistake when I was a rookye,10 years ago more or less,CIV 1 times

Gunter

	15-01-2004 19:53									#21
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Being afraid to go to war.

Every once in a while those neighbors whose score is close or higher than yours need some pruning

	15-01-2004 20:34									#22
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Not watching F3 screen and anticipating "weak" means attack is pending.

== PF

	15-01-2004 21:07									#23
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Another big newb mistake is not being prepared for the AI counterattack after war is declared. The AI always heads for your weakest city. Always.

	15-01-2004 21:23									#24
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Building too many city improvements - temples everywhere, barracks everywhere, libraries everywhere, colosseums everywhere. I'm still occasionally guilty of this, too, though(well, except the colosseums, blech).
This goes hand-in-hand with :

Using happiness buildings instead of the lux slider.

Also, failure to specialize cities - worker/settler factories, troop factories, etc.

Failure to explore and make contact as many contacts as possible as soon as possible.

Using the Great Library as a crutch(see Ision's thread about Wonder Addiction on CFC - I think it was Ision).

Irrigating bonus grasslands under despotism.

All of these I've been guilty of in the past. It's been 5 games since my last Wonder-splurge and I feel fine.


Oh yeah, biiiiiiig one - not building a granary in one of your first 2-3 cities, especially if you have bonus food tiles. This one is huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge.

	15-01-2004 22:12									#25
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quote: Originally posted by ducki Oh yeah, biiiiiiig one - not building a granary in one of your first 2-3 cities, especially if you have bonus food tiles. This one is huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge.

I often don´t do that, and I probably loose alot by not doing it... but Emperor is still working out fine for me, guess I´m a bit lucky

	15-01-2004 22:12									#26
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i agree with all points mentioned by ducki. and the misuse of the science and lux sliders is really one of the biggest mistakes... i know, because it took me some time to start using the sliders back when i played civ2.

since most newbies start playing on Chieftain level, happiness is not really a concern, so they do not get used to manipulate the sliders early in the game - and often they do not have to do it during the whole game, because the happiness improvements manage to get things under control.

to me, knowing when to max science and when to max gold is a huge step towards a successful game...

	15-01-2004 22:20									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Fatwreck I often don´t do that, and I probably loose alot by not doing it... but Emperor is still working out fine for me, guess I´m a bit lucky

For examples on how an early granary can help, check out "Ducki Does C3C at Emperor".
The thread quickly devolved(my own doing) into a discussion about the how's and why's of a 4-turn settler pump - you can't make a pump without a granary, and if you've got the food, you're shortchanging yourself if you don't at least try to make one. There's multiple screens and saves and a looooot of insight from the strat forum vets about it.

I used to build a granary before my first settler _every_ time - that's a second-level newbie mistake. You must adapt to your terrain, and as such, there should be no hard and fast build orders for every single game.

That said, in the "Winning Early, What Do YOU Do?" thread that can be found in Theseus' "Must Read Threads"(topped in the strat forum), nbarclay did an analysis showing that building a granary before your first settler(if you have the shields to do it) puts your first settler out a mere 7-8 turns later than not building a granary and you catch up after about the 3rd settler.

Anyway, I'd probably vote my #1 newbie mistake as not checking out the strat forum, particularly the stuff in "Must Read Threads" - some of which is outdated, but the really important stuff is mostly timeless.

	15-01-2004 23:48									#28
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While I tend to agree with ducki, those are finer points that I would expect them to have trouble with. They are not limite to new players.

	15-01-2004 23:53									#29
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An early offense is a good defense... if you don't get enough cities and land, and you let the AI build up, you'll have a much tougher time taking over their cities later into the game. Early offenses if you have a good UU or can build the Statue Of Zeus is a huge boost.

If you're still in the early times and under Despot - when offered peace, see what you can get... barter to get free techs/stuffs then declare war on them again! Stupid AI always falls for that!

While I wouldn't suggest pumping out Spears, they do have a place defensively and there was at least one game I wish I had pumped out more early - cause I had lots of cash and the defensive units are cheap upgrades.

	16-01-2004 00:09									#30
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quote: Originally posted by ducki For examples on how an early granary can help, check out "Ducki Does C3C at Emperor". The thread quickly devolved(my own doing) into a discussion about the how's and why's of a 4-turn settler pump - you can't make a pump without a granary, and if you've got the food, you're shortchanging yourself if you don't at least try to make one. There's multiple screens and saves and a looooot of insight from the strat forum vets about it. I used to build a granary before my first settler _every_ time - that's a second-level newbie mistake. You must adapt to your terrain, and as such, there should be no hard and fast build orders for every single game. That said, in the "Winning Early, What Do YOU Do?" thread that can be found in Theseus' "Must Read Threads"(topped in the strat forum), nbarclay did an analysis showing that building a granary before your first settler(if you have the shields to do it) puts your first settler out a mere 7-8 turns later than not building a granary and you catch up after about the 3rd settler. Anyway, I'd probably vote my #1 newbie mistake as not checking out the strat forum, particularly the stuff in "Must Read Threads" - some of which is outdated, but the really important stuff is mostly timeless.

yeah I should, and probably will... If I ever want to beat anything more than emperor