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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:33
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...
Regarding a potential deal for democracy, Vox Controli is interested primarily in future technological progression or gold. At this time we have no real need for furs; despite the relatively frigid air of our ski slopes our people have developed thick skins to ward off the chill. We'd like to discuss our options further with you regarding this matter based on your preference for either trading gold or technology, and your future technology plans. We look forward to hearing from you.
...
I sent a generic, thanks, we'll be in touch message, as I didn't want to give too much away...
I am deathly afraid that whatever tech we trade them, will just end up in Lego's hands, ie. chemistry and metallurgy, and navigation, thus pushing them closer to steam. Right now we have a jump, as they are most likey researching Econ at the moment and we can push to the new era.
So if we want to do this, I would suggest we try to get a tech deal with lego as well, to at least get something from them.
And of course, we would want a 20 turn ND (which might help, but I it might take lego 20 turns to get ToG and Magnetism anyway)
Thoughts?
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Cort Haus
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London
Apr 2002
time: 05:33
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Well played for keeping the cards close to the chest - and I agree that the last Civ we want to research for is Lego - even if we gain a tech ourselves.
I doubt Lego are far from Economics. We'll get Chemistry around the same time as them, and then it'll be a straight dash for the line, with them probably having the edge - though we should be close.
Question : Why would Vox want any tech that they'll get from Lego anyway? We assume that Lego will top them up for the IA freebie, so what do they need from us that they can't get from Lego?
If the answer is that they're fishing for tech to supply to Lego, this suggests that they are working for a Lego win. Sure, Vox appreciate Lego's role in assuring their own survival, but they appreciate our role in that too, and have said so publically.
How about if we say to Vox that we might consider a tech trade, but only with a very long term NDA. We don't need demo that badly that we'd risk spending a mandatory tech on it. I'd like to ask them why they need tech from us when Lego will supply them - though that might not be diplomatic. What could Vox be needing to build that they need tech for?
If I was Lego, would I want Vox letting GS have PP for Invention - which Lego could supply themsleves? No, which suggests that Vox are acting autonomously in that respect.
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Tall Stranger
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Northern Virginia
Nov 2002
time: 00:33
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I think CH has the right approach here: would a 40 turn NDA be enough?
Maybe it's just me, but I don't think that it's off-base for us to lay at least a couple cards on the table. I might suggest saying the following: in principle, we might be interested in a tech-for-tech trade. However, we are very aware of Lego's growing power, and simply can not, at this time, engage in any transaction which will benefit Lego. Given your current close relationship with Lego, we must understandably be very careful about any tech we pass to you. (I would not suggest giving any additional information about our "future technology plans" without some pretty clear indications that Vox is acting independently from Lego on these matters.)
The thing I can't figure (and the thing which makes me a bit nervous about this request) is why Vox doesn't want our lux. If I remember correctly, they only have access to one lux from Lego, right? Even with some good happiness builds, a second lux would be good for them. Is there something I'm missing (probably very likely)? Similarly, what good is gold going to do them? My fear is that they are doing for Lego what RP is doing for us: funnelling gold to support higher levels of research.
EDIT: I see that RP is thinking about dealing incense to Vox. Maybe that's the other lux Vox is planning on.
Last edited by Tall Stranger on 18-01-2004 at 21:12
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Cort Haus
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London
Apr 2002
time: 05:33
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Vox's terrain seems to be mostly mountain and sea, so they might seek gold to rush builds. They've had a long haul to build their harbors and sang of these achievements recently on the public forum.
First, we say to Vox that we need to know when Democracy would be researched before we could consider a tech deal. If it's less than 40 turn, we know they're pushing on tech and can't be funnelling much gpt to Lego. If 40 turn, then they have gpt which they might be supporting Lego with, or could go on their own builds.
If they're going at 40-turn, we could test the water by offering Chemistry + Furs for Democracy - payable on delivery of Democracy. They'll reject this, so we then up our offer to include Banking (and drop the furs). We intend to have Steam Power in 40 turns, so if Lego want to wait till then for Chemistry they're welcome. 
If, as I expect, they'll reject the second offer, we could raise it againby throwing in Furs. If they reject that, we'll know their game by then so we say "ok, what do you guys want then?". {EDIT: This forces them to reveal their intentions - whether they are looking after themselves or Lego.}
My point is that as long as Vox spend 40 turns, or even 30 on Democracy, and they get nothing from us until then, we can probably afford to offer mandatory techs that Lego will require long before that time.
Last edited by Cort Haus on 19-01-2004 at 02:16
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Cort Haus
It might still be worth starting with Chem + Furs, just to see how they react. Demo is worth more than Chem, which will also be devalued by then.
However, who else wants Democracy? We're the most likely beneficiary. Unless Lego fancy Shakespeare for culture and a super-city, would they sacrifice the anarchy for the worker boost? |
That's really what I was thinking. Who else can jump to democracy without crippling their nation? ND? Not a great market. Is somebody going to bother building shakespeares? Maybe if this were C3C...
Plus, surely vox would switch to an industrial tech after these 40 turns rather than go for free artistry. even if they pulled nationalism, I would rather have espionage than free artistry.
Maybe an exploratory note of asking their due date on democracy would be in order, no formal offers on our part. Something like: if you told us when you would receive democracy, we would tell you what we could trade you at that point. I certainly don't want them to know even the order we are gaining techs, as Lego could dovetail off of our research (and depreciating r. costs)
Is there anyway we could work on getting their free industrial tech out of this as well? Or at least float a reasonable offer to see what lego is up to?
I'm like you guys, thinking that vox will just give our techs to lego (would we even know if they broke the deal, lego could just claim that they researched it themselves, they are not above such trickery, see:sistine prebuilds) Hmm.
so I'm thinking:
step 1: ask how long they will take for democracy
step 2: offer chem +furs when dem comes our way
step 3 (after rejection) increase offer w/20turn NDA
step 4: break off talks, we don't need democracy anyway
And possibly at some point ahving a talk with rhoth about lego and what we think they're up to .
Maybe we could get some info out of them. Like if they want chem+metal in 30 turns, maybe that's lego's target for finishing magnetism and ToG. If this were the case, it would also indicate that Gow is not trading them those techs, as I thought they woudl , ie. GoW MT beeline, trade techs to Lego
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:33
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ok vox will gain democracy in 15-18 turns.
Which means they are researching much much faster than one scientist or 10%. Probably near 100%, as demo is a very expensive tech, iirc.
our nda with gow (chemistry) runs out in 19 turns, so possible, but maybe a little too much.
of course in 14 turns, we are industrial...
so whatever we give them, + 20 turn nda, assuming we give it to them on turn 18 will not help lego significantly, as they will likelyhave researched the low level techs. though they might get a discount if we traded vox either mag or tog (which I think we shouldn't do).
If we traded them physics in 18 turns, I don't think it would hurt us at all, all the major parties, except for nd (still unknown) will have physics by then. If lego doesn't then I dont understand the strategy, unless it is to try to finish everything two turns behind us to save some cash.
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:33
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yeah, I'm not sure what we should do.
The main question is when will lego learn physics. If they gain it before Vox gets demo, then we could trade it. otherwise we would be giving lego a what, 20% discount on it?
I suppose we could be honest with them, that we would be willing to trade them physics once lego has it due to the tech depreciation.
Maybe something like: (my internal comments are in () not communicated to vox)
Dear Vox
We would love to make a deal with you, but unfortunately it seems that every tech we get either through our own research or through trade, you gain through your own means either the same turn or shortly thereafter. (subtly alluding to Lego's only giving them techs that we already have). And we are not sure that we could give you enough gold and fur to make a trade worthwhile to you. (trying to avoid saying we are running 100% science, I don't know how to tiptoe areound the subject better) We might be able to offer you a tech in a few turns depending on the geopolitical environment, but that is unclear at this point.
Alternatively, we could add: To put it bluntly, we feel we are in a tech race with Bob and Lego and fear that trading some techs that we will have in 8 turns will depreciate the costs significantly. Fortunately or unfortunately, the tech trailblazers have to bear a much higher cost when making scientific breakthroughs. But I don't need to tell you how this works, we are all pros here. (well, I'm an amateur but I'm told what to say  ) So you see, we're in a bit of a dilemma.
alternatively, we could respond by saying that we will talk in a few turns (before the discovery) in the meanwhile seeing what lego/nd has discovered, then make an offer. Surely lego will have physics in 8 turns, they would fall far behind otherwise....
I just don't know what to do. I'm a big softie and feel bad telling these guys its straight off.  I know its probably not in our interests to make a deal. 
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:33
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Are there any problems with me sending this:
We would love to make a deal with you, but unfortunately it seems that every tech we get either through our own research or through trade, you gain through your own means either the same turn or shortly thereafter.
In truth, the benefits of Democracy are relatively marginal, compared to a mandatory tech. Outlaying gold for it would carry a high opportunity cost, and Democracy is an expensive item. We could offer you Physics, but not until certain key parties have already researched it. We also have luxuries, as suggested before.
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:33
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ok, I'm going to send it.
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18-01-2004 03:58
this might have been a giant fishing expedition by them.
are these guys just trying to be a part of the game again, or what? I don't understand what's going on. 
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