19-01-2004 16:34									#1
	Does the "average American" agree with Michael Moore? Increase Your PM Length

As I have the fortunate privilege of being able to view the antics of George W. Bush and his cronies from afar, I'm interested in understanding what real Americans think of the situation both within their own country and it's relationship with the rest of the world, rather than rely on the often outrageous reporting of the US media.....particularly FoxNews and, to a lesser extent, CNN.

	19-01-2004 16:37									#2
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I don't agree with either of them.

	19-01-2004 16:43									#3
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From what I can gather, there is no average American.

Their society is quite polarised and rather than being a cause, George Bush II is a symptom of that.

	19-01-2004 17:29									#4
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Polarised? Perhaps within a narrow range. Most Americans agree on most things. Generally we share common goals. The debate is usually how to accomplish them. Michael Moore and Ann Coulter represent two extreme polls, which is why they draw so much press. The truth is that most of us lie in the middle. Their always has been and always will be healthy debate on the issues here. Every four to eight yars of my life I hear how "polarised" we are...if we didn't hear that then their wouldn't be much for the press to cover.

	19-01-2004 18:14									#5
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The US is such a boring place. Michael Moore, extreme?

Last edited by General Ludd on 19-01-2004 at 19:09

	19-01-2004 18:28									#6
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The problem is that both left and right get the most visibility and most Americans are much more moderate. The appearance of pandering to both far left and far right special interests leaves the moderate middle with the same old conundrum. Which is the lesser of two evils?

30% left
30% right
40% centrist voting for either Kang or Kodos.

OTOH, once in office the same leftist or rightist pandering candidates shift to centrist policies. Case in point Clinton and Bush. And for those who think Bush ultra-right one only need look at the growth of government and tarrif policy.

So to answer your question the answer most likely is no, unless the left is capable of swaying more than 20% of the centrists.

	19-01-2004 18:30									#7
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Michael Moore is a moderate left winger.

The average american doesn't vote.

	19-01-2004 18:33									#8
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I second the "there is no average American" sentiment. Ideologically at least, we are a country that values independent thought and going your own way, no matter how stupid or pointless that way may be. I think it might be one of the consequences of overabundant information that we polarize ourselves to be distinct. That, and we vilify agreement. If three people feel the same way about anything, it's just mindless conformity, after all. In a nation of armchair experts, everyone is bound to think Moore is wrong on at least one small portion of his beliefs. I mean, just listen to how pretentious I sound, and I'm a relatively open-minded American.

	19-01-2004 18:40									#9
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Pretentious git.

	19-01-2004 18:43									#10
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The averge American (And everyone else) doesn't understand what Michael Moore stands for. For example, as far as most (Perhaps a simplification) people are concerned since he hates Bush therefore he loves Clinton, when that is not correct. I guess that's what happens with a two party system though.

	19-01-2004 19:55									#11
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I don't agree with Moore.

	19-01-2004 19:56									#12
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Moore is pretty moderate... it's just because he's so public and outspoken against right wing radicals that he seems to be on the fringe.

I think America is more "liberal" than the right would like. The NRA knows this, and a lot of other right wing groups know this. There was a collection of polls I read about that illustrated this fact.

The right keeps America polarized over "moral" issues like abortion, religion, and now war in order to keep power. They know that America would boot them out if most Americans knew about their corrupt connections to corporate cartels.

But does the "average" American agree with Michael Moore? Tough to answer... there isn't such a thing as an "average" American.

	19-01-2004 20:27									#13
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Eh, you're pretty average, Sava.

	19-01-2004 20:44									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe OTOH, once in office the same leftist or rightist pandering candidates shift to centrist policies. Case in point Clinton and Bush. And for those who think Bush ultra-right one only need look at the growth of government and tarrif policy.

Bush has yet to tack back to the center. He's starting to make some campaign promises to go centerwards again, but his promises have the same worth as a $3 bill.

	19-01-2004 20:49									#15
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There is no such thing as the average American. And we are pretty polarized as a society. I would say 30% right, 20% left, and the rest floating in the middle. But those people who are apolitical are also the ones least liekly to get involved in politics, so even if one can claim the majority of Americans are moderate, this is a majority that is uninvolved, thus leaving the polarized ends to control the politics of this country.

	19-01-2004 20:59									#16
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Bush has yet to tack back to the center. He's starting to make some campaign promises to go centerwards again, but his promises have the same worth as a $3 bill.

No moreso than the claims of the elite 8.

Funny no matter who is elected they will betray their core support group as they adopt centrist policies.

	19-01-2004 21:29									#17
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Eh, you're pretty average, Sava.

America is in deep trouble then...

	19-01-2004 21:35									#18
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quote: OTOH, once in office the same leftist or rightist pandering candidates shift to centrist policies. Case in point Clinton and Bush. And for those who think Bush ultra-right one only need look at the growth of government and tarrif policy.

economically, he's ultra-right... or corporatist... in terms of social policy, he's authoritarian. The growth of government has little to do with the normal left-right comparisons on economics (which is why I hate the LINEAR MODEL!).

There's nothing "conservative" about Dubya... he's a radical in his use of the military in foreign policy, and he's extremely authoritarian in his views on abortion, gays, and "security". True "conservatives" ideals are in extreme contrast to the people who call themselves conservatives today.

Conversely, many so called "liberals" aren't very liberal at all. After 8 years of Clinton, the drug war is as intense as ever, there was little social progress as wealth continued to trickle up... Clinton's not a liberal, Dubya isn't a conservative.

I really wish we could have some better descriptive norms in terms of politics. This "left/right" crap dumbs the process down and is detrimental to informing people about the parties or candidates they support.

	19-01-2004 21:38									#19
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I asumed my comment would spur some anti Bush hating sentiments. Glad to see I wasn't disappointed.

	19-01-2004 21:39									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe I asumed my comment would spur some anti Bush hating sentiments. Glad to see I wasn't disappointed.

how is what I said "antiBush hating"...

I merely described Bush on the political spectrum... and BTW, if it was "anti-Bush hating", I would be someone like Rush Limbaugh bashing liberals.

	19-01-2004 21:40									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Sava economically, he's ultra-right... or corporatist... in terms of social policy, he's authoritarian. The growth of government has little to do with the normal left-right comparisons on economics (which is why I hate the LINEAR MODEL!). There's nothing "conservative" about Dubya... he's a radical in his use of the military in foreign policy, and he's extremely authoritarian in his views on abortion, gays, and "security". True "conservatives" ideals are in extreme contrast to the people who call themselves conservatives today. Conversely, many so called "liberals" aren't very liberal at all. After 8 years of Clinton, the drug war is as intense as ever, there was little social progress as wealth continued to trickle up... Clinton's not a liberal, Dubya isn't a conservative. I really wish we could have some better descriptive norms in terms of politics. This "left/right" crap dumbs the process down and is detrimental to informing people about the parties or candidates they support.

Except for the part about Dubya being radical in his use of the military - I agree.

I'm very disappointed in Dubya's economic policies. Government spending has gone up more in 3 years of Dubya than it did in 8 years of Clinton.

	19-01-2004 21:43									#22
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quote: Except for the part about Dubya being radical in his use of the military - I agree.

I think pre-emption... offensive actions without cause... is radical. It's no different than any other country who has invaded another... **STRUGGLING NO GODWIN LAW HERE**

	19-01-2004 21:45									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I think pre-emption... offensive actions without cause... is radical. It's no different than any other country who has invaded another... **STRUGGLING NO GODWIN LAW HERE**

So you must view Clinton's use of the military in Kosovo as being radical also.

	19-01-2004 21:47									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia So you must view Clinton's use of the military in Kosovo as being radical also.

I do...

	19-01-2004 21:48									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I do...

You get an A+ for consistency then...

	19-01-2004 21:50									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe No moreso than the claims of the elite 8. Funny no matter who is elected they will betray their core support group as they adopt centrist policies.

Yes, except they will betray their constituency by doing what Georgie did, going right. Georege betray the center by doing the same thing. You know, just once, I'd like to see American politics go left.

	19-01-2004 21:51									#27
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yes, except they will betray their constituency by doing what Georgie did, going right. Georege betray the center by doing the same thing. You know, just once, I'd like to see American politics go left.

You don't think American politics have gone left in the last 50 years???

	19-01-2004 21:51									#28
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You're 70 and 40 years too late, Che.

	19-01-2004 21:53									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia You don't think American politics have gone left in the last 50 years???

Che is nearing 40, meaning that he probably became politically active/aware around 1980. So he, personally, hasn't seen a Leftward shift in American politics.

	19-01-2004 22:00									#30
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quote: Except for the part about Dubya being radical in his use of the military - I agree. I'm very disappointed in Dubya's economic policies.

@Sava

Politics suk. Let money govern, since it already rules!!!