19-01-2004 22:51									#1
	Bad Days for My Family's Health Put an end to popups!

On Friday my Lil' Sis found out that her unborn child is not developing properly. It's intestines, and probably other stuff, are developing outside of the child. She goes to see a specialist today.

Also on Friday my Grandma learned that she has Bone Cancer, the same thing that took her late husband not too long ago. She goes to see an oncologist this week.

The cancer sucks, but since my Grandpa died my Grandma has been just buying time waiting to die as well. Ironic that she'll die of the same thing he did... Oh, she has decided to forgo treatment if they offer to her. Basically, she is ready to die and has been since my grandpa died. It's a long story, but he was her reason for living.

The one that really irks me is my lil' sis. She has a history of mental problems stemming from her lack of ability to deal with stress and heartache. She's been on every anti-depressant medication ever mentioned on these boards. She got off of them about 1 year ago when she got married. She is a very clingy person needing to give love (not sex)at all times. Losing a child will definitly affect her in a negative way, more so than it would most people.

Basically, I just wanted to share my angst, as it helps to talk about it to ppl who are more rational than my parents. Yet, I was also wondering what you'd all would do if you were in my sisters situation. Would you consider abortion? She's just over 4 mos along.

Personally, I want to here what the specialist says. Yet, I don't think prognosis will be good, and I also think that an abortion would be worse for her than a still birth or even death in the NICU.

What would you do?

	19-01-2004 23:00									#2
	Increase Your PM Length

I'm sorry to hear of your family's health troubles. I understand your Grandmother's thinking, one of my grandmother's gave up the fight to live too, following a traumatic operation and a bereavement.

Your sister's situation may not be that grave- the medical condition you describe is capable of being resolved, so a termination may not be necessary.
I trust that her visit to the specialist brings her good news.

I hope you will be strong for them and for yourself- my very best wishes.

	19-01-2004 23:10									#3
	Increase Your PM Length

Thanks molly. We don't condone abortion, but we aren't specialist either. We trust that her and her husband make the right decision based on the information they receive.

One nice thing was that his parents were there visiting this weekend, and his dad is a doctor who understands these things better than I. Hopefully he was able to make her feel better.

	19-01-2004 23:10									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

My best wishes to your family.

Indeed, it appears that your sister's situation is far from hopeless. A good specialist has a decent chance of solving the problem.

As for your grandmother... let her do as she wants. If she wants to put a stop to her life as it is, let her.

	20-01-2004 03:29									#5
	Inflate your Upload Space

Dang, Japher. Sorry it's piling up on you.
My grandmother died last week, so I know it isn't easy.
Like you and yours, I'm against abortion, in most cases.
I'll pray for all.

	20-01-2004 03:42									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Sorry, Japher. I don't have much advice in re: to your sister, but I sincerely hope everything turns out OK.

	20-01-2004 04:12									#7
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Yet, I don't think prognosis will be good, and I also think that an abortion would be worse for her than a still birth or even death in the NICU.

See the specialist, and see what they have to say. There may be something that can be done to help your sister's child.

Until then, a decision does not need to be made.

Otherwise, I agree with your assessment.

Best wishes to your family in these trying times.

	20-01-2004 12:07									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

The child has been diagnosed as being Trisomy 18. Trisomy 21 is down syndrom (spelling). Also, besides it's (only because they can't discern the sex) insides being on the outside, it's heart is not developing (it has holes in it) and the lungs are growing in off it's back.,....

Either my sis did some serious drugs I don't know about, or this is just bad luck... Sad thing is the Doc told her that the chances of this reoccuring in another pregnancy is 1/100... not that great of odds for the good if you ask me.

I guess this is why we do genetic research.

IMO, the abortion is required to prevent the suffering.

Sorry

What do you think?

	20-01-2004 12:08									#9
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Oh and Trisomy 18 is worse than trisomy 21... The doc told her the kid might live to be a year old, but would never leave the hospital... gaurenteed.

	20-01-2004 12:11									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Jesus. My thoughts are with your sister, Japher. No one should have to make a decision like this.

	20-01-2004 12:14									#11
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

thanks... I feel for her. It really doesn't affect me, but such things, IMO, are the reason why abortion is legal, and should be left up to the parents. I wish my sis the best, and will be there when she needs me... that's all I can do.

	20-01-2004 12:15									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Oh my god, I'm so sorry.

I wouldn't normally give my opinion, but since you asked us what we thought..... it sounds to me like an abortion is the most humane way to deal with the situation - as long as that's the decision your sister makes. The suffering of both mother and child have to be taken into account. If ending the suffering of the kid a few months sooner than it's 'natural time' is only gonna make the mother suffer more than maybe it isn't the best plan overall.
A nightmare decision for anyone to have to make.

	20-01-2004 12:17									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

This is the time when I would go off by myself, talk with God ... and beg and pray that I'm doing the right thing, that the lesson intended was just that, to feel the loss of a child.

I would go with abortion.

Gatekeeper

	20-01-2004 13:16									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

This sounds pretty bad, I'm sorry Japher .

I don't know if there is anything to do, except to be strong so you can support your sister and grandma too.
Not very huge advices, but I couldn't think of anything else now.

	20-01-2004 13:39									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

That is terrible, and has a hideous irony in it dovetailing neatly with a response I just gave on a post to Ben. I hope she goes with abortion, for both her sake and the sake of what the quality of life would be for the child.

I hope you get the opportunity to be there for her when she gets the abortion, as well as other family members. That's going to be horribly rough. I cringe to think of my little girl being diagnosed with that back when she was in the second trimester. I don't think I would have handled it well, though we had discussed it beforehand and decided if that was the case, to abort. My heart goes out to your family.

	20-01-2004 14:05									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

Japher:

Trust me on this one. For the sake of your sister, she should not have an abortion.

There are a whole slew of health complications for the woman. She will increase her risk of breast cancer by at least 30% assuming that she has no other risk factors, such as other family members who have had breast cancer. The abortion could also damage her fertility if something goes wrong.

How hideous would it be that in trying to prevent suffering, you cause her a great deal more?

She is not required to have an abortion, for any reason. Thay just say that because they want you to make the quick and fast decision.

First off, tell your sister to wait at least a week or two before making the decision. Something like this needs time.

quote: The doc told her the kid might live to be a year old, but would never leave the hospital... gaurenteed.

quote: IMO, the abortion is required to prevent the suffering.

A year, eh? Some women never get that long with their children. All life is suffering Japher, even if the child were healthy. None of us have any guarantees whether we will even be here tomorrow.

	20-01-2004 15:27									#17
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Having you and the rest of her family there for her is a very good thing for both your grandmother and your sister at such times.

What you get to strive to do is to give as much sympathy and love as you can without intruding.

By which I mean that you try not to let your own worry and stress add to their problems.

Decisions on matters like these are intensely personal. The best thing for a close family member to do is to listen a lot but to offer few, if any, opinions. If pressed it is OK just to say what you think is best done but baldly - not supported by argument.

There is an exception. The relationship between husband and wife is one in which each relies deeply on the opinion of the other. In a sense you are one person. So even the strongest minded spouse will, in extremis, look to the other for guidance.

But not so a sister or a gran.

So if you find yourself driven to have a view about how it would be best for your sister or gran to act don't advocate those views.

Which does not mean you cannot simply express your own emotions.

It sounds as though you are reconciled to your grandmother's decision. But if that is not true and you need her to stick around for your sake it is perfectly OK to ask her to hang on to life a bit longer as you need her. That is not intrusive. It is just doing what a grandson does.

I find it hard to imagine that you have any similar enmotional interest of your own to express about your sister's pregnancy. Views on abortion tend to have a strongly emotional basis but it is abundantly clear from your posts that the emotion you feel is simple love and concern for your sister.

And that is expressed by sympathy and listening; being there for her as the expression goes.

	20-01-2004 23:51									#18
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Japher,

My thoughts are with your family and you.
Old people tend to die and what I often found very comforting is that given a certain age, they have had their fill of life and they can part in peace - My own late grandmom once told me that after the death of her husband she felt her life somehow finished and complete. And she was in good health and not sick of her life.

The problems in your sister's pregnancy are far worse.
I don't know if you can do much more than giving your sympathy and understanding. It is important that your sister (and you) don't develop a feeling guilt for something which is basically beyond your power. And the small secondary problems which might come from stress - they are small secondary problems.

But in case too stron tensions arise between your sister and her husband try to suggest professional help. From what you wrote here, I think they need each other.

Good luck to all of you.

	21-01-2004 00:13									#19
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Japher: Trust me on this one. For the sake of your sister, she should not have an abortion................

I dont think it's possible to express my disgust with these comments so I wont try.

	21-01-2004 00:22									#20
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Japher,

I'm sorry for your sister .

The decision is quite terrible, but I think that an abortion is in place. Save the suffering for the poor kid - not only he won't live for more than a year, he will actually spend his short life in suffering.

	21-01-2004 06:55									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Sorry to hear. Hope things work out for the best in both situations.

My father's sister died last weekend, actually, so I can understand the sentiments.

	21-01-2004 08:43									#22
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The child is being aborted...

I am pro-choice, and even if this child had downs I would be against the big A... but, the situation here would cause more harm than good if she attempted to take it to term and I think this is the right decission.

Boris, sorry to hear about yer aunt...




I have been forced to rethink an item I try to avoid; abortion... Yet, my wife and I are beginning to think of having children and we need to think about this issue as well.

Thanks for the support.

	21-01-2004 08:50									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

She made the right choice, absolutely. Very unfortunate situation, though. I'm sorry.

I never met my dad's sister--she was rather severely mentally retarded herself, and spent most of her life in an institution in Ohio. She was not expected to live past 20, given a heart defect she had. She died at 57.

My dad couldn't go to the services, and his parents wouldn't go (I've yet to get an explanation for this), and I think he's feeling some residual guilt, since he hadn't seen her in well over 10 years and had just been toying with the idea of visiting her again when he got the news. She wouldn't have recognized him, though. She couldn't distinguish between her father, who died in 1954, and the man my grandmother married a year after that.

	21-01-2004 08:52									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Japher, I'm so sorry.

	21-01-2004 08:59									#25
	Re: Bad Days for My Family's Health Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Japher On Friday my Lil' Sis found out that her unborn child is not developing properly. It's intestines, and probably other stuff, are developing outside of the child. She goes to see a specialist today. Also on Friday my Grandma learned that she has Bone Cancer, the same thing that took her late husband not too long ago. She goes to see an oncologist this week. The cancer sucks, but since my Grandpa died my Grandma has been just buying time waiting to die as well. Ironic that she'll die of the same thing he did... Oh, she has decided to forgo treatment if they offer to her. Basically, she is ready to die and has been since my grandpa died. It's a long story, but he was her reason for living. The one that really irks me is my lil' sis. She has a history of mental problems stemming from her lack of ability to deal with stress and heartache. She's been on every anti-depressant medication ever mentioned on these boards. She got off of them about 1 year ago when she got married. She is a very clingy person needing to give love (not sex)at all times. Losing a child will definitly affect her in a negative way, more so than it would most people. Basically, I just wanted to share my angst, as it helps to talk about it to ppl who are more rational than my parents. Yet, I was also wondering what you'd all would do if you were in my sisters situation. Would you consider abortion? She's just over 4 mos along. Personally, I want to here what the specialist says. Yet, I don't think prognosis will be good, and I also think that an abortion would be worse for her than a still birth or even death in the NICU. What would you do?

All I can say at this point is that you have my sympathies.

	21-01-2004 09:04									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: I dont think it's possible to express my disgust with these comments so I wont try.

Every one is true. Every single one. IN fact I could say much more on this subject.

Japher:

You said your sister is emotionally fragile. How then would losing a child be less harmful to her?

	21-01-2004 09:07									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

BK, I've normally felt you were a pretty decent fellow, if misguided, but if you dare turn this into an abortion debate, I'll have to concede you're a right insensitive bastard.

This isn't about abortion, it's about some very unfortunate events in Japher's family. Back off and save your religious agenda for someplace else.

	21-01-2004 09:11									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Japher: Trust me on this one. For the sake of your sister, she should not have an abortion. There are a whole slew of health complications for the woman. She will increase her risk of breast cancer by at least 30% assuming that she has no other risk factors, such as other family members who have had breast cancer. The abortion could also damage her fertility if something goes wrong. How hideous would it be that in trying to prevent suffering, you cause her a great deal more? She is not required to have an abortion, for any reason. Thay just say that because they want you to make the quick and fast decision. First off, tell your sister to wait at least a week or two before making the decision. Something like this needs time. A year, eh? Some women never get that long with their children. All life is suffering Japher, even if the child were healthy. None of us have any guarantees whether we will even be here tomorrow.

That is absolutely disgusting, Ben.

Have you ever been inside a NICU? Have you seen children born with their organs on the outside of their bodies? Have you ever seen a child with Trisomy 18?

Not to mention the fact that your breast cancer statistic is complete and utter bullshit.

But worst of all, you drag your politics into Japher's suffering. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.



I am truly, truly sorry for your pain, Japher.

	21-01-2004 12:56									#29
	Got spare money?

quote: But worst of all, you drag your politics into Japher's suffering. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Oh God, he wasn't even the first one to do it in this thread...

	21-01-2004 13:53									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Sorry to hear about all the troubles. It's bad enough when illnesses strike, but then to have to make a decision like your grandmother and sister did, that's brutal.

How are you handling eveything?