21-01-2004 19:36									#31
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stuie- we did spank our oldest a couple of times when he was 3-5. we justified it with the mantra of life-threatening behaviour, which we had read in the books/mags. In hindsight, I am quite sure we spanked them because of our extreme emotional state (fear, panic) and not because of considered, rational plan to teach him understanding.

All a kid can learn from spanking is don't get caught disobeying someone big and violent. If they understand the reasons behind it, you don't have to catch them, deter them, enforce it, etc.

Spanking is to make parents feel better. That is all.

	21-01-2004 19:45									#32
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geez, do you have a lot to look forward to

Simply to give info, not advice, theres an entire range in between "hit them" and "lead by example, persuasion, inspiration, etc"

1. punish them non violently - if you do x, we take away y. etc
2. Similar to 1, but add rewards as well as punishments
3. STEP (Steps to effective parenting?) IIRC negotiate, discuss what the punishments will be.
4. Logical consqequences - punishments and rewards, as in 1 and 2 are abitrary - consequence should flow naturally from what was done - you didnt brush your teeth, so you cant eat candy. etc. Coming up with "logical" consequnces is sometime not easy, as youd imagine.


then there is the "left"camp which doesnt even like 4, cause things should be done out of intrinsic motivation.

	21-01-2004 19:46									#33
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Well, I'm not a child-care expert but I play one on TV, but the natural response to the above scenario would surely be to grab the kid, make it look at you and tell them you know they're lying, then use emotional manipulation to inscribe into it why lying is bad. You know, make the sad face or something.

	21-01-2004 19:46									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy I'm speculating JohnT, but maybe, just maybe the reason she didn't want to admit to it was because she was afraid of an angry reaction. Now, if your conscience is clear on that, fair enough. But too often I see parents in full screeching rage at their kids. Scares the hell out of me, let alone the kids!

Nah... Sophie is aware that Daddy has a temper, but a diaper change is just a diaper change. She's at that stage where she doesn't care for us to do it, but doesn't want to learn how to use the toilet.

	21-01-2004 19:55									#35
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Viking Small children are far more intelligent than adults tend to believe. We tend to base our idea of their intelligence on their vocal capabilities and their knowledge and experience, both of which they are lacking. As a result, we continually underestimate the sophisitication of their understanding, motivation and actions. ... Spanking your kid is giving in to your fear and frustration. It has only negative impact on the kid, and admits automatically that you are a failure. If you want your kid to be thoughtful, respectful and responsible, you cannot teach them this by being angry, violent, and reactive.

We're pretty aware of how smart Sophie is... she's a very observant child, and watching her measure our reactions sometimes is a complete hoot.

However, I disagree with the notion that "Spanking your kid is giving in to your fear and frustration ... and admits automatically that you are a failure." While spanking is a last resort punishment, it doesn't automatically make a parent a failure any more than "talking it out" makes one a success.

I was spanked 5 times in my life and I remember every single one of them. And I didn't learn that Dad was a violent abuser, I learned:

1. Don't lie.
2. Don't throw the kittens.
3. Don't open everybody's Xmas presents on December 25th at 2:00am while everyone is asleep.
4. Don't steal from Dads workplace and then tell all the employees "It's mine 'cause my dad is your boss!"
5. Don't throw oranges and tomato's inside the house.

	21-01-2004 19:58									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Tuttle I'm not a parent, but I know from experience and my own upbringing that instilling the fear of God into your kids is a great motivator for them to act like respectable human beings.

Well that's good if your child believes in a higher authority.
But what happens if they do not?

	21-01-2004 20:00									#37
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quote: 2. Don't throw the kittens.

	21-01-2004 20:00									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Potassium Finally, someone who agrees with what I've been telling my mom my entire life. I could carry on full conversations with adults at age 4, yet I still got treated like I just learned to speak the day before. It's annoyed the hell out of me. And for seriously, spanking is not the way to go. Nor is hitting them at all, because after awhile, they're going to hit back. I have, on various occasions and after being slapped for something, come about thisclose to slapping my mom back. I can't bring myself to do it. But anyway. If you want a kid to do something, reward them for positive behaviour. "If you do such and such, I'll give you a cookie/take you to the park/buy you a puppy." Worked wonders for me.

Well, when I was four I was speaking my own language, one that only my brother could understand. I'd say something like "Una gotta bitey toe!" and they'd all look at my brother and he would say "He wants some more milk."

Positive reinforcement is fine, but how do you positively reinforce the notion that crayons and walls don't mix?

	21-01-2004 20:04									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Potassium That's why you teach them why they shouldn't be doing what they're doing. They aren't going to learn by you smacking their bottom and telling them they shouldn't do it. Anytime you tell a kid not to do something, they're just going to want to do it more. .... No, it doesn't. Telling them to sit there and thnk about what they've done -- WTF?! "Okay. I talked back to you and now I'm sitting here being bored. I could be outside playing. That would be a lot more fun than this. I wonder what my friends are doing..." and the mind wandering continues from there. Taking things away works about as well as ^^^ that ^^^.

Again, note that we're talking about a 27-month old child here. "Teaching them why they shouldn't be doing what they're doing" will probably work in a couple of years, but for now it usually draws blank stares and a lot of nodding.

And in the other paragraph, sitting thinking about how the other kids were having fun and you weren't is precisely what your parents wanted you to do. Oh, they didn't phrase it that way... but you gotta admit that it was pretty effective, or else you wouldn't still remember it.

	21-01-2004 20:05									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Spanking kids is sometimes necessary to show them that there is a limit that MUST not be crossed... Imagine your kid is crossing the street without looking at the road to spot a vehicle though you have repeated time and time again that he should not cross without you or without having a look.

Then you have one of your neighbours hit your child with their car at 5-10kph, and if they still don't get it, hit them at 15-20kph.

The best-working way (I reckon) is to get the child aware of the current situation - sometimes through brutal experience.
...
MY flight from the imagined to the real?
Dealing with the fact that no kid is as quick at understanding things as I was. *sigh*

If a parent bothered to do the punishing it is quite possible that the child will dislike the parent as opposed to learning.
Doing something to avoid a smack may be well and good in the short-term, but when you are no longer around to give them a smack then what is there to stop them?

Exactly. Safer to teach them the errors of their ways than to set yourself up as the explaination (and likely cause of dissent).

	21-01-2004 20:06									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed Well, I'm not a child-care expert but I play one on TV, but the natural response to the above scenario would surely be to grab the kid, make it look at you and tell them you know they're lying, then use emotional manipulation to inscribe into it why lying is bad. You know, make the sad face or something.

We do this, and all Sophie does is pat our head, trying to make us feel better.

	21-01-2004 20:13									#42
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Everyone knows that kittens like flying.

	21-01-2004 20:34									#43
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT I was spanked 5 times in my life and I remember every single one of them. And I didn't learn that Dad was a violent abuser, I learned: 1. Don't lie.

Is it possible that your dad could have really stuffed with your plans by lying to you?
...How did he know you were lying, anyway?

quote: 2. Don't throw the kittens.

Presuming you don't have an angry cat somewhere around, throw the kid as he throws the kittens. (Brutal - and logical!)

quote: 3. Don't open everybody's Xmas presents on December 25th at 2:00am while everyone is asleep.

Immediate reaction: Retake presents.
Later, find out what your kid wants and usurp it before they get it (probably will require to promise this after the cristmas event).

quote: 4. Don't steal from Dads workplace and then tell all the employees "It's mine 'cause my dad is your boss!"

Have employee swipe kid's stuff, claiming "It's mine 'cause my boss is your dad!"

quote: 5. Don't throw oranges and tomato's inside the house.

Immediately met by a counterfire of tomatoes and oranges.

Of course this requires explaination, and at times would be considered brutal, but if your kid has half a wit (and -some- ability to empathise) they'll catch on.
(Note that my presumptions may well be false)

	21-01-2004 20:38									#44
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT "... explain to them what they're doing wrong and reason with them....Spanking does nothing but teach the kid that violence is the answer... blah, blah, blah." Yeah, I used to be one of those too. "Oh, I'll NEVER spank my kids, that would be WRONG!!! I remember when my dad spanked me - I vowed that I would never do that to my kid, that I will treat them with love, respect, yadda yadda yadda." So, whatcha gonna do in the following case: Sophie walks in the room, reeking to high heaven because she had a diaper: "Sophie, did you have a movement?" "No." "Sophie, tell me the truth: did you have a diaper?" "No." "Sophie, you're lying to us." "No." peering inside "Sophie, I can see it. Did you have a diaper?" "No." Oh, we didn't spank her of course - she's still too young for more than a swat on the bottom (something you don't want to do with a full diaper anyway), but the fact is that I have seen the future 'cause I remember the past: Even with all evidence to the contrary, even knowing that we know, children will still lie to us to avoid whatever it is they want to avoid (in this situation a diaper change). I did it, my daughter does it, I'm sure y'all did it too. So, how does one reason with a creature that will knowingly deny mountains of evidence? Answer: you can't.

Then don't give them the opportunity... My son is 19 months old... he says 'no' quite clearly. Remember, no sometimes means yes in their books because it's a word that becomes a favorite.

So it's not that you can't reason with them, it's that they don't have the active vocabulary to return the proper answer.

quote: But any suggestions would be appreciated. So, all you parents out there: what was the biggest shift from the imaginary to the real that you experienced? Were you rabidly anti-TV... until you needed some peace and quiet to get some work done so you decided to turn on the cartoons? Were you virulently anti-spanking until you just had to get the message across? Were you an anti-Santa Nazi who now gets sad because your kids no longer believes? This slice-of-life has been brought to you by the family Thornton. All rights reserved.

Not big on TV much... though he loves Star Trek: TNG for some reason...

Other than that we just play him music.

He doesn't like Santa nor wants anything to do with Santa as of last Christmas. We're wagering next Christmas will be different.

	21-01-2004 20:45									#45
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Sophie can say "yes"... she does so by nodding.

"Sophie do you want to eat?"
:nods:

So it's not her communication... she just thinks that if she tells us she doesn't have a diaper than that means that she doesn't have a diaper and doesn't need changing.

	21-01-2004 20:50									#46
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* FlameFlash nods.

So does my son, though he also doesn't say yes to a diaper change often so we just don't ask...

Kind of like why one doesn't say, do you want to take a bath? Or what would you like to wear today?

You give options like "Would you like a story now or after your bath?" or "Which of these two shirts would you like to wear?"

	21-01-2004 20:59									#47
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I have brought up just one child and she was a very biddable girl so discipline was never a big deal.

But I'll offer you what experience and thoughts I have.

It felt entirely natural to me to smack Lara when she was tiny. Although I can only remember doing so about three or four times.

Of course the smack does not hurt nor is it intended to. What it does is communicate rapidly and effectively that the child has done wrong and that you are displeased. It is the disapproval which hurts. And I do not believe that with a young child - two or three say - that the affront to their dignity matters very much, or indeed at all.

With a rebelious child I suspect I would be willing to smack right up to six or seven. But by then the ability to explain displeasure and its cause verbally is much greater and there is the chance to base discipline on some other form of punishment.

What I failed to do - mainly because the need to discipline was so rare - is to work out a graduated scheme of punishment so as to have an apropriate response at hand when the need arises. I used to get caught out. There would be a need to punish but the first thing I thought of doing by way of punishment would always seem far too severe and I could never rapidly come up with something which felt apropriate. So I'd finish up being lenient.

This did not seem to do any harm because of my daughter's nature. But a more unruly child might have suffered a bit.

Most people seem to base punishment on grounding the child for some period, shorter or longer, and I guess that is OK. But perhaps there are better things. Extra chores perhaps. Anyway my tip is to have a graduated scheme ready to hand.

The only other point I can contribute is that the age of two is a special period. It is then, I think, that the child begins to appreciate (at an intelectual level) that there is a world separate from themselves and that they have to adjust their own behaviour a little to accomodate it.

And this does not come naturally. It has to be learned. The upshot is that you should expect at least one stand up fight. In my case it came in the back of a car and the way I found to communicate to my two year old daughter that she would not always and inevitably get her own way was wholly phyical. Of course a mature man can suppress a two year old. But the battle of wills was fierce enough for me to remember it to this day.

Again I see nothing wrong with the physical nature of that confrontation. In fact I have no doubt that this is a lesson which must at least start to be learned within a family. Children nowadays get to start nursery schools younger and younger. In my view they do best if they are further down that particular mental road rather than less advanced.

So the terrible twos are a particular time, I think.

Which is my two pennyworth done.

Except to add that I have seen television programmes about really difficult children and my heart goes out to the parents in those cases. Doesn't sound as though you have that problem, though.

	21-01-2004 21:00									#48
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Even with all evidence to the contrary, even knowing that we know, children will still lie to us to avoid whatever it is they want to avoid (in this situation a diaper change). I did it, my daughter does it, I'm sure y'all did it too. So, how does one reason with a creature that will knowingly deny mountains of evidence? Answer: you can't. But any suggestions would be appreciated.

Just change her diaper anyway - when she sees that she can't get out of it by telling an alternate version of the truth (that's pretty much how kids see it at that age) then she doesn't have much incentive - and you can always make the diaper change less pleasant by throwing in a lecture on the virtues of telling mommy and daddy when your diaper needs to be changed.

quote: So, all you parents out there: what was the biggest shift from the imaginary to the real that you experienced? Were you rabidly anti-TV... until you needed some peace and quiet to get some work done so you decided to turn on the cartoons? Were you virulently anti-spanking until you just had to get the message across? Were you an anti-Santa Nazi who now gets sad because your kids no longer believes? This slice-of-life has been brought to you by the family Thornton. All rights reserved.

None really - I used to think that changing diapers would be disgusting, but long before I became a parent for the first time almost 17 years ago, I had my nose broken enough times that I have a very limited sense of smell - some types of smells I simply can't detect, others are fine, most are fairly week.

Having a mid-teens daughter, I thought I'd be spending a lot more time sharpening my Ang Khola and cleaning a shotgun, but she's so much a workaholic super-achieving student that I try to get her to relax and unwind a bit more.

	21-01-2004 21:36									#49
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My 13 month old is too young for discipline alhtough we do say sternly NO when he bites us.

I hope i don't resort to violence to discipline him but i don't know how i will react in all situations

	21-01-2004 21:53									#50
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Nah... Sophie is aware that Daddy has a temper, but a diaper change is just a diaper change. She's at that stage where she doesn't care for us to do it, but doesn't want to learn how to use the toilet.

Clearly the solution is, if she doesn't tell you that she needs a diaper change, then you don't change them. Eventually, she'll get tired of the smell and tell you. Also, this will encourage to use the potty, as she won't want to be dependent on you all the time when she's uncomfortable. Then make her smoke a carton of cigarettes. That'll learn her good.

	21-01-2004 21:56									#51
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I was never spanked and never had problems, my sister was spanked and she's a mess now...

Come on, guys... get a little creative. There are better ways to get a point across than hitting, in fact there are volumes of literature on child development and that addresses child learning in particular, why not look into it before belting your kid.

"It hurts but it works..." give me a break.

	21-01-2004 22:05									#52
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And you know, a human child's ability for language comes long long before their ability to talk. I've seen studies where parents will teach their kids a basic form of sign language so they can sign basic things like "I'm hungry, dirty, etc, etc...", and it works. These babies cried far less often than other babies because they didn't need to since they had another way of communicating.

Edit: And there are studies that also show that the human brain (even one who's never had a child) is programmed to respond to the sound of a baby crying... there's something about it (and the respective part of our brain) that makes the sound almost impossible to ignore, and also one of the most annoying. So keep in mind, babies are programmed to cry and we're programmed to get annoyed by it. The sign language stuff also serves to reduce tensions of both the baby and parent, which is more likely to prevent spanking/hitting, whatever. And I think most spankers will admit that they often get some kind of release out of spanking their kid.

	21-01-2004 22:13									#53
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Jimmy, you might be confusing cause and effect. Perhaps your sister was spanked because she was wild, and perhaps you weren't because you weren't.

	21-01-2004 22:16									#54
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I wont spank my kids but electrodes sounds interesting

	21-01-2004 22:20									#55
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My parents would always make me stand in the corner (basically equivalent to "taking a time out" or whatever the modern term is) until I told the truth. Sometimes it took several hours before I fessed up (I was a pretty stubborn kid), but eventually I'd relent. Obviously this won't work while the kid's diaper is full of crap, though, since you don't want to wait to clean that up.

	21-01-2004 22:22									#56
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi Clearly the solution is, if she doesn't tell you that she needs a diaper change, then you don't change them. Eventually, she'll get tired of the smell and tell you. Also, this will encourage to use the potty, as she won't want to be dependent on you all the time when she's uncomfortable. Then make her smoke a carton of cigarettes. That'll learn her good.

poor technique. especially later. u'll end up w/ neglectful parents and a messy ineffectual kid.

	21-01-2004 22:25									#57
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You can't punish a little woman for lying. I think all females have this inbread into them. So, really, it's a loss clause

	21-01-2004 22:25									#58
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Yeah, you don't want to let that stuff dry out.

	21-01-2004 22:25									#59
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quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader The only other point I can contribute is that the age of two is a special period. It is then, I think, that the child begins to appreciate (at an intelectual level) that there is a world separate from themselves and that they have to adjust their own behaviour a little to accomodate it.

On the other hand, some children grow up to be like me. This so called "not-me" world is, at best, a source of me-fun and me-amusement. At worst, it's filled with all these meaty bag type things called "other people". Fortunately, such a view prevents one from being led astray by bad influences.

Starchild: a parent's mixed blessing since 1984.

	21-01-2004 22:36									#60
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon poor technique. especially later. u'll end up w/ neglectful parents and a messy ineffectual kid.

The parents don't have to be neglectful. You can still ask, "Did you **** yourself?" and try to prod the child in the right direction, but make it clear that you need the child to tell you the truth in order to help it. The main lesson is that actions or inactions have consequences.