22-01-2004 10:14									#1
	why feudalism is better than republic Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

republic used to be my favorite government of choice. even with no unit support cost you could still support a sizeable military because of the increased commerce, and have spare change left over. and the science rate wouldnt be that bad either.

NOW however unit maintenance cost is doubled, even with the pathetic unit support formula (something like 1/3/4). corruption is horrible even with the new patch and that alone kills republic not counting the huge amount you will have to pay for your military.

so what did firaxis do to offset this tragedy? feudalism. i will explain how to make it work. under feudy unit support is 6/2/1. the key here being 6 for towns (under size 7). dont build any aqueducts or graneries, to keep your cities small, but the key is to have a lot of them. either by conquest or expansion, and unit support under desop is good enough for you to conquer a few opposing civs no problem. by the time you hit feudy you should be big enough to support it.

lets say you just got feudy and you have 20 cities. under despo you could support 80 units, under monarchy you could only support something like 40-80 units depending on your city size, for republic, forget about it, but under feudy you can support a whopping 120 units! thats enough for you to defend yourself from attack, build a navy, AND take a few cities, in which case your unit support goes up even higher. and the commerce and science rates arent that bad either.(heck of a lot better than despo) for a huge feudy civ powerhouse you could easily conquer your entire continent (trust me ive done it). war wearyness is so low as to be not even a problem

the key to feudalism is to budget your military as to not go over your unit support because you will pay dearly for it (3 gold per unit!) but the smart tactition can work around that. if you are big enough you wont even need to build that many units for what you need to do. i wont go over the later governments but i will say that communism is the ultimate war time government. my point here is that feudalism is, hands down, better than republic.

Last edited by AAHZ on 22-01-2004 at 10:25

	22-01-2004 10:26									#2
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I hardly ever pay anything for my military (of course, I don't play late game)

you don't have enough cities

Jon Miller

	22-01-2004 10:27									#3
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I play republic btw

the only time I would do feuadlism is if I had no sources of freshwater near (and was religious)

JOn Miller

	22-01-2004 10:28									#4
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the 20 city thing was just an example, i usually have way more than 20, 20 is an easy number to calculate for my example, makes it easier to read and stuff...

	22-01-2004 10:28									#5
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If you have 20 towns you will have a lot of trouble getting to 120 units, it seems to me.
If I have 20 cities by fuedalism, at least 10 will either be 12 or close to it. That give about 40 units free support. If I have 60 total, I will pay 40 gold. That is no strain for a republic. 60 units seems about right, if many are workers.
I don't want 120 troops in the ancient age. If I had that, I would have killed everyone on the land mass already.

What WW will I have, if have 120 units? I would not have a war. No one will attack me and when I attack I will eliminate them quickly. Anyway if I am in the ancient age and getting Fuedal, I am probably in Despot and they don't have WW.

So when do I have 120 units? Well it will be very late in the game and I may be better off going to Communism.

	22-01-2004 10:36									#6
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I don't want 120 troops in the ancient age. If I had that, I would have killed everyone on the land mass already.

isnt that the point? the name of the game is to win, not to let the computer get strong, then compete with them later on in the space race. if you kill em off early, your dominace is assured

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 What WW will I have, if have 120 units? I would not have a war. No one will attack me and when I attack I will eliminate them quickly.

again thats the point, all dependant on play style though.

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 So when do I have 120 units? Well it will be very late in the game and I may be better off going to Communism.

by the time you hit commy i hope you can support more than 120 units!

	22-01-2004 12:36									#7
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I guess my real point is that you will not have 120 units in the ancient age.

	22-01-2004 16:40									#8
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I guess my real point is that you will not have 120 units in the ancient age.

maybe not, but certainly in the early medieval age if you 'have' to win by conquest...

	22-01-2004 16:43									#9
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as in this pic (1305AD)

Attachment: 1305ad3.jpg
This has been downloaded 265 time(s).

	22-01-2004 18:24									#10
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Feudalism is better if having up to 6 pop cities, while republic is better in other case.

	22-01-2004 18:40									#11
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I guess my real point is that you will not have 120 units in the ancient age.

well lets break it down again even further. 120 units with 20 cities was my example. you would have AT LEAST 20 of those units as defenders and 20 as workers. add another 5-10 more defenders dependant on city location or player paranoia, another 5-10 more workers dependant upon specail tasks that need to be done, so that would be about 60 of the 120 units already. if you have 2-3 neighbors (or any neighbors at all), border defence becomes an issue. say you have oh about 10 of your 20 cities as border cities. i like to have AT LEAST 2 good attack units in all border cities for added protection, so thats another 20 units. we are now up to 80 of our 120. now for our navy i like to have AT LEAST 1 boat in all coastal cities for protection against foreign invaders, say we have 5 coastal cities. we are now up to 85 of our 120 limit. that still leaves room for a decent attack force (about 35 units). thats enough for a good war campaign, and i have covered all the bases (albeit just the basics)

keep in mind that this is just an example and in a real civ game i have way more than 20 cities by feudy, have more of a navy AND my border cities defended better, and i usually STILL have room for a decent military. my economy and science are usually doing good too (by not building not needed improvements). if i was republic there would be no way i could support such a military force.

Is it possible to build 120 units in the ancient times: yes
is feudalism better than republic: without a doubt.

	22-01-2004 19:16									#12
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you are getting bigger than you need to be to win (you don't need that many troops to be dominant)

also, still being at that tech at 1305 AD?

you are not learning fast rnough, really

Jon Miller

	22-01-2004 19:19									#13
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Isn't it a little crazy to address this without considering your play style for the game in question? My first (and only, to date) C3C game netted me a smallish area with plenty of rivers plus the pyramids. Before I even got as far as researching the republic, more than half of my cities were over size 6. It doesn't take a genius to spot that under those conditions not only do you do better in terms of both upkeep and excess cash for research in republic than in feudalism, but you get to go to republic sooner.

Of course it would have been possible to take advantage of Feudalism by shrinking my towns, founding lots of new ones to take advantage of the unusde space, and built up an army to go and beat up on Aztecs to the south (who have a monstrously large army). Whether that would have worked out better in the long run is anyone's guess. But since I felt like playing this game in a more builder fashion, republic was clearly the only choice worth considering.

	22-01-2004 19:22									#14
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in republic in the anceint age

lets say you have 10 7-12, and 10 1-6 (so pretty early in the game) - so ~40 free troops?

and this is probably earlier than feudalism, at feudalism time frame you would probably have 15+ 7-12s in a 20 city empire

5 coastal cities, 5 defensive troops
20 cities, 20 workers
if you are attacking, you don't need boderguards, that leaves you with 15 free attackers + (however many you want to pay for)

and much much better science and money than feudalism

not only would you have bigger cities, but also you would have more trade per square

Jon Miller

	22-01-2004 19:28									#15
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Vulture:

quote: Originally posted by vulture Of course it would have been possible to take advantage of Feudalism by shrinking my towns, founding lots of new ones to take advantage of the unusde space, and built up an army to go and beat up on Aztecs to the south (who have a monstrously large army).

i ALWAYS take advantage of unused space, even if a few of my cities are on rivers, all the new cities i build/conquer will offset the low unit support of my larger cities. even if you are a builder, to support the most basic military, for a large empire, almost requires feudalism. the only exception being you are very small, your cities are huge, and have a small military. and well, thats just easy pickins for the harder level AI's.


Jon:

quote: Originally posted by jon miller and this is probably earlier than feudalism, at feudalism time frame you would probably have 15+ 7-12s in a 20 city empire

thats only if you build aqueducts, which i already stated, i dont.

quote: Originally posted by jon miller 5 coastal cities, 5 defensive troops 20 cities, 20 workers if you are attacking, you don't need boderguards, that leaves you with 15 free attackers + (however many you want to pay for)

5 defensive troops for 20 cities?! thats suicidial! no borderguards? what level do you play on to have such a low defensive force?

	22-01-2004 19:44									#16
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emperor or demigod

Jon Miller

	22-01-2004 23:34									#17
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I thought Feudalism was 5 free units for Towns. Did I misread?
I'm in Jon Miller's camp on the defenders thing. I like my cities close together so one or two guys can be responsible for 3-5 towns. Or better yet, give me offensive units as "defenders". Republic gets not garrison happiness benefit, so I'm more flexible if I have "defenders" that can take out an unlikely invasion force before it gets to a town.
By the same token, I may be slightly crazy, too.

	23-01-2004 01:28									#18
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MS you have around 40 cities so that is not out of line. Was this a std map?

	23-01-2004 01:36									#19
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AAHZ I won't have 120 units in the ancient age, maybe on AU208 which was all war and no peace was allowed. You are killing your empire with that many units that early in the game.

If I did have 120 units I would not have more than 10-15 defenders. Defend against whom? I would have eliminated all on my land mass with that many units.

I may have 40 or more workers, but half would be free slaves.
Again I can't be in Fuedalism in the ancient age anyway.

I will probaly have no interest in Fuedalism when I get it as I don't need it. If I had those units already, it is plenty to kill anyone in the game.

	23-01-2004 01:40									#20
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What level and settings are you playing? I want to make a test run using them. I will make a two civ game and one civ will be isolated on a tiny island with no resources.

This wil allow all out building, no barbs and lets see what can be done.

No city over size 6, 20 cities by fuedalism.

Research will be negatively impacted though.

Last edited by vmxa1 on 23-01-2004 at 01:45

	23-01-2004 02:07									#21
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vmxa1, MS's map is from his thread in the Strat Forum. In that particular case, Feudalism probably was the best answer. Spread-out empire, few food bonus, low fresh water, etc.

As long as you have room to expand, and can keep your cities on the smallish side, I agree, Feudalism would beat Republic. However, once those towns start growing, Republic or even Monarchy would be better.

Also, Research would be hampered in Feudalism due to lack of cashflow (although if you had that big of a military, you probably wouldn't need too much Research--just overwhelm your neighbors even w/ inferior units.)

Steven

	23-01-2004 02:55									#22
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Yeah I know it was that game, but was too lazy to go check on the settings.
That is why I said the number of troops he had was reasonable. He had 40 ciies and until 1300's AD to build them.
Maybe AAHZ has hit on a new improve strategy, that is why I am interested in the settings to see if it is sensible and possible.

AAHZ maybe you could just post a save where you are researching Fuedalism and save me some work?

	23-01-2004 03:35									#23
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VMXA-

i play the difficulties from regent to monarch. ill explain why. this is from primas official civ 3 strat guide:

chiefton- content citizens 4 (all after this # are auto unhappy), AI build/research rate 200% (takes them twice as long), barb combat bonus +400% (added to your units stats)

warlord- content 4, AI rate 120%, barb +200%

regent- content 2, AI rate 100%, barb +100%

Monarch- content 2, AI rate 90% (now they build and get tech faster than you), barb +50

Emperor- content 2, AI rate 80%, barb +25%

Deity- content 1, AI rate 60%, barb +0%

Demigod & Sid- who knows?!?!

So you see Regent and monarch are a middle ground between the bonuses you get vs the bonuses the AI gets. my skill vs the computer no kid gloves attached. I see no need to uselessly penalize myself (especially at levels from deity and above).

as far as posting a save i have to start a new game anyway so give me sum time. Ive been playing hotseat with my friend on regent for so long (im in the process of training him), that i may be a bit rusty on monarch. no excuses tho ill get the post up.

	23-01-2004 03:45									#24
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I am pretty sure that the happiness changes from regent to emperor

my freinds are use to palying regent, and we recently started a game in emperor (which was soon quit) and they couldn't keep their cities happy

(we ended up with monarch as being a good place between regent and emperor, but I found it a lot easier)

Jon Miller

	23-01-2004 03:48									#25
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Thanks AAHZ, what settings do you use for map size and number of civs?

	23-01-2004 03:53									#26
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AI Bonuses
Def Land Units 0 0 0 2 4 6 8 12
Off Land Units 0 0 0 1 2 3 4 6
Start unit type 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 2
Start unit type 2 0 0 0 0 1 2 2 4
Extra free support 0 0 0 4 8 12 16 24
Bonus for each city 0 0 0 1 2 3 4 8
Max gov transition 0 0 0 4 3 2 2 1
Cost factor 20 12 10 9 8 7 6 4
AI to AI trade 110 120 130 140 150 160 170 200

	23-01-2004 03:55									#27
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These never come out well:


Other variables
Citizens born content 4 3 2 2 1 1 1 1
Citizens quelled 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
Att bonus vs barbs 800 400 200 100 50 25 0 0
Percent optimal cities 100 95 90 85 80 70 60 50

	23-01-2004 03:56									#28
	Inflate your Upload Space

VMXA-

i tried to edit this into my last post but it wouldnt let me.

i usually play on continents, 60% water (i HATE starting on an island), large to huge map (i just recently toned down from huge to large). 8 civs large map, 12 civs huge map.

the reason i dont fill the map with AI civs is because i usually just let the computer pick my civ for me. if i happen to be expansionist, and im playing against 31 other civs, what is the chance of me getting those huts?

	23-01-2004 04:00									#29
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I forgot is the CivIII/PTW and C3C. Anyway you can look in the editor for the current values as it some times gets tweaked.

The first born is unhappy at Monarch and above.

Whoops never mind, Fuedalism only exist in C3C, so are you using the 1.15 patch?

Last edited by vmxa1 on 23-01-2004 at 04:07

	23-01-2004 04:05									#30
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

i first downloaded the 1.12 patch. then i used the 1.13 patch. lastly i downloaded the 1.15 patch as soon as it came out. not sure what effect all these patches had on the program.