24-01-2004 01:36									#61
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Well let me say that you can toss out what I have been saying as I was talking about a regular game. That is why I was saying 120 units, what???? 20 cities and 120 in ancient age.

I looked at the map and said what in the heck. So many cities and two settlers out, but all lower tier techs? Hum. looked at a city and saw 10 turns for a granary with 4 shiled city? Must be AP.

I have no experience with that so I can't begin to rate it.

	24-01-2004 01:45									#62
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Ah sorry got confused. Nisku the thing about the Zulu is they could attack anytime and with 4 units they may get lucky and take the city. If they do and raze, that is no fun. I would surround them with MA and put two MI in the city so nothing funny could happen.

Yeah you are right but then hey that will give me an excuse to nuke them into the stone age

It seems the AI is scared crapless of me right about now but from past games I've noticed the Zulu have a tendency to make insane suicide attacks.

120 units in the ancient age, yes excessive but doable in the middle ages.

I don't know anything about accelarated production, what does that give you?

	24-01-2004 01:45									#63
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Is it more fun that way for you? Is it to abbreviate the game?
There have been a few poster using AP, so maybe they can give some input. I don't know if standard techniques are useful with AP or adaptations are required.

One of the advantages experience gives is you can tell where you stand and what to expect. That would probably be lost in an AP game for me as I have no experience with it.

So I don;t know what to look forward to in terms of units I may face and when. How the tech rate will progress, what trade values are and the like.

It probably makes sens to use a larger city placement scheme in an AP game that has only 8 civs on a huge map. You will have lots of time to expand, lots of land to expand into and faster grow to use the tiles.

If you stick to no cities over size 6, then you should consider tighter spacing. Too many tiles wasted and too much work for the workers.

	24-01-2004 01:46									#64
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i wonder if AP gives the AI the same production benefit. probably does because they pump units out as fast as i do.

edit - i spaced my first few cities out far because there were shields nearby and i never build on a shield unless i have to. when i hit democracy, i let my cities grow and i usually have an overlap. i generally space cities 4-5 tiles out

also AP games i play in hotseat to make the game go faster. i just got used to it. generally speaking i like to pump out units and buildings as fast as i can

Last edited by AAHZ on 24-01-2004 at 01:52

	24-01-2004 01:53									#65
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"I don't know anything about accelarated production, what does that give you?"

It give double for shield/food and commerce. The purpose was to allow MP games to go faster, well any game really.
I am not sure why anyone would want a non-MP go to faster. Is that counter to a civ game?

	24-01-2004 01:56									#66
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AAHZ do you have the 4000bc for that game?

	24-01-2004 01:58									#67
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no i didnt think you were interested in it that far back. the next save will probably when i hit feudy, double my size and build the start of my military

im worried about the iroquois. they have all that land to the north of them, yet can also cut me off to the south. well at least i have my big island.

	24-01-2004 02:05									#68
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Check the autosave if you use it. I don't it would be there if you do. I want tosee what would happen with std techniques in an AP.

	24-01-2004 02:10									#69
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yes it was in the autosave folder. having trouble sending it so here is the zipped folder.

Attachment: conquests autosave 4000 bc.zip
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	24-01-2004 02:17									#70
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Ok I got it. The reason you had trouble is the autosave files are much larger than the straight saves.

	24-01-2004 02:20									#71
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Nisku I should have realized it was yours as it was Emperor level.
Anyway I have had the AI do an attack from that point, even though it was a losing move. They have little choice anyway. It failed as I had 2 MI, but you never know how the RNG will treat you.

Last edited by vmxa1 on 24-01-2004 at 03:51

	24-01-2004 03:12									#72
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Um, Fuedalsism is quite good when you have lots of towns and no cities, but the moment a large number of cities reach size 7, support costs rise dramicaly under Fuedialsm while falling under Republic.

The key to a Republic compared to Monarchy and Fuedalism is also to not go so far over the limit that most of the free trade is consumed. That is very hard to do if you have very few size 7 cities, but once a large number reach it, it becomes easy.

In my own current game, I was blessed with lots of rivers in my starting area and consquently was able to switch to Republic as a non-religious civ much earlier than in pre-conquests games.

	24-01-2004 06:19									#73
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AAHZ I played a bit of it. I got to say I found it to be too hetic and too much work. You are having to make someting every other turn. I see why you make barracks everywhere, you get to the point that you don't have anything else to do.

I was going nuts moving units around constantly. It may be better with a smaller map and more civs, such as std map with 8.
Then you would not have so many cities and so much land to work.

I also see why you make the placement rather wide, just to keep the work down.

It is still not the best way to go, especially if you plan on staying size 6. Too many dead tiles. I would surely go to size 12 as it will not take long to get cities to that size and then you get more unit support and can squeeze the cities closer.

With the SoZ you can handle those Mounted Warriors. The other thing is with all that land you will have many many uprisings to deal with. If you can get enough sentries out to prevent camps from forming before the next age, you can stop them.

	24-01-2004 09:51									#74
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feudalism is great given the right start conditions: not an agri civ, not that many rivers in the start area, and enough neighbors to conquer. and if you have a neighbor with the great library, and even other good wonders (pyramids, sun tzu) then even better! when you're done conquering with feudalism, then switch to democracy.

otherwise feudalism is going to keep you stuck as a backward and weak civ.

	24-01-2004 10:40									#75
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I did not have the great library, only one wonder and civ to conquer right off the bat and I did just fine. I was actually stuck on an island. I didn't build a great wonder until the theory of evolution. Sure I was behind in tech for a while but now I'm two or three techs ahead of my nearest competitor.

I think it depends on playing style and the civ's UU. If you have a UU that is going to be good for middle ages warfare the unit support with feudalism will work for you. If you plan on going peacefully and can make nice spaced out cities soon in the game go for republic. That being said feudalism is not better then republic or vice versa but it is better then monarchy.

	24-01-2004 17:28									#76
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VMXA- will be busy this weekend but will post my next save with summary hopefully today.

let me say though that i have about 60 of my max of about 88 units, and have build the SoZ. will keep u updated. (as you can see i will hit 120 in no time.)

i guess the biggest line of miscommunication is that you didnt know i was playing AP at first. as you will see it is entirely possoble to have a lot of units in the ancient/middle ages.

	24-01-2004 22:36									#77
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True.

	24-01-2004 22:47									#78
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When I played a bit of the 4000bc one and got around 14 or so cities up, I looked out at all the land I still had to fill up, not counting the island I had started, I got so depressed.

I could just see me ferverously pounding out scores of settlers and workers and troops. That was just too much.

I wondered what it would be like on a bit more rational size world.
The impact of 8 civs on a large map, with no AP. If that would be overwhelming as well.
Even with std rules it is a lot of units. They don't come out quite as fast, so that helps.

Contacts are a long time coming as the world is so empty and big.

	27-01-2004 23:35									#79
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AAHZ I was wondering how your settings (large map, 8 civs) impacted play. You said you were not able to win at Monarch, was that using the AP mode?

I think the problem can be in that game (no AP) you may have to go a very long time with no contact and if you get a good sized land mass with only one other civ, you will have a retrarted research rate.

If you don't allow for that and try to race for Phil and the Lit you could find yourself down a bunch of the first level techs and then some second level ones. It will take a long time to get on par, unless you luck out an met some others. This may not happen until they find you. It is a big world and the ships are slow.

Once you do then the game proceeds at what I would expect for that level.

If you end up with a number of civ in proximity then you can gain a lead early and hold it.