22-01-2004 15:49									#31
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quote: The assumption that God is omnipotent is not safe to begin with, therefore there is no reason we should expect God to be omnipotent and all people on this earth to have native Christian morals

Expected this reply. No , we would not expect all people on Earth to have native Christian morals because not everyone will accept them. Only those people who accept God will share his morals.

Is there no reason to believe God to be omnipotent? Let us consider the contrary. St. Anselm argues that God is always the greatest being we can conceive. Therefore, a being that is not omnipotent, would not be god, because we could imagine a higher being.

I suggest either going the route that God does not exist, because you wil probably get more distance than trying to argue that God would not be omnipotent.

	22-01-2004 15:51									#32
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Well, since Jesus is God's son and God at the same time, I guess the answer is this: We killed God. He cannot punish us anymore

	22-01-2004 15:53									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Expected this reply. No , we would not expect all people on Earth to have native Christian morals because not everyone will accept them. Only those people who accept God will share his morals.

What about people like me? I accept most Chrstian morals, yet I don't believe in the magical juju Paul invented to have supersticious people flock to him...

	22-01-2004 15:58									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Well, since Jesus is God's son and God at the same time, I guess the answer is this: We killed God. He cannot punish us anymore

God is like Buffy... you keep killing him, and he keeps coming back.

	22-01-2004 18:42									#35
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the point is that the wages of sin is death, the natural outcome of sin is death

Christ did not suffer to earn forgiveness

rather he died, and when he died (before even, when he took up the cup in the garden) he took our sin, our sentence, and was the one who did it instead of us

all we have to do is accept Christ's gift, and we will be saved, because he died for us

of course a lot of us sin again, and so have to accept His gift many times

and yes individuals are responsible for their own actions, their own sins

and as for the existence of sin, well look arround you, look at the holocaust, look at the abused children, look at all the evil in the world

there is sin, of that there can be no question

basically we are all murders, rapists, molesters, genocidists

and rightfully we deserve death

but when we go to the hangman, Christ comes in and says that He will swing for us, so that we have another chance

as for why sin is death, it is the same sort of thing like jumping off of a tall building, it is the natural consequence

sin distances us from God, and God is life, so when we leave God's presence we are heading toward the abyss (the grave, nothingness)

as such we die (for eternity) when we have left Him

sorry, I am not the best and discussing such concepts

Jon Miller

	22-01-2004 19:29									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Who said anything about something being fine? You don't seem to comprehend the gravity of this debate. Saying something is "fine" or not is again a question of morals. All I'm saying is different cultures, different religions, and different people all have different morals.

Yes, they have. But the fact that they all see different things as moral doesn´t prove that they are all equally right.

If someone claims women are inherently inferior, and builts a moral system around this, women could say there´s no evidence for such a claim, therefore it is nonsense to base the law on it. Then I think a moral system which assumes that women and men are equal is much more justified. So the Swiss did probably the "right" thing when they allowed women to vote too ca. 25 years ago..... :cute

Or not? Let´s wait what those evil relativists say....

	22-01-2004 19:53									#37
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT God is like Buffy... you keep killing him, and he keeps coming back.

And while he's dead you can make a robot that acts like him.

	22-01-2004 21:07									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi ...why did God choose the route he did, to have his Son serve as the sacrifice for many? There are several clues that allow us to approach the answer. First of all, you have to look at the Jewish sacrificial system. Jews would offer sacrifices, as a sign of their contrition, and their request for forgiveness. God does not need their sacrifices, but such sacrifices made it clear that sin is no trifling matter. However, the problem with these sacrifices, is that they had to be repeated. As animals, they were imperfect, and could not cleanse man of his sins permanently. Only a perfect sacrifice could effect such redemption. This is where Christ comes in. Christ offered himself, voluntarily, to be the sacrifice, and became a man. He suffered all the temptations of man, yet remained sinless. Thus, when men crucified him on the cross, he remained blameless, and could become the perfect sacrifice for sin.

Basically what this is- a publicity stunt to steal believers away from Judaism.

Sacrifice animals? Pshaw!! Our GOD sacrificed HIS OWN SON! Take that, Jew! Nyeah, nyeah!

	22-01-2004 21:12									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Now we have a real topic to debate! Are there any objective morals that apply to all peoples? I think I can find one. What about the principle, 'all people should be equal before the law?'

I like that one.

I think all people, if they have shared their life and their bed with their true love for 20 years, should be allowed to visit them in their hospital death bed. And receive the surivor benefit from their pension.

Many, and probably most Christians would disagree.

	22-01-2004 21:33									#40
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Viking Many, and probably most Christians would disagree.

I don't think most Christians will disagree. Most Christians won't see any problem with what you just said, provided the word "marriage" isn't thrown in the equation. Because they believe marriage is their own little thing.

	22-01-2004 21:52									#41
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT God is like Buffy...

Weird... now I want to **** God...

	22-01-2004 21:57									#42
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Weird... now I want to **** God...

You're not the first one

	22-01-2004 22:05									#43
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Despite Dogma

1) God is the creator. He always was and always will be. He is perfect. Perfect being do not change.

2) God acts through the Holy Spirit.

3) The Holy Spirit created Jesus Christ. (How is not explained. Jesus could be the son of Mary and Joseph, but blessed by the HS.)

4) Dogma says that JC is God the same as God the Father. But this plainly contradicts the very words of the Bible or implies that God is not perfect and can change.

5) Dogma says that JC suffered and died for our sins. He seems though to have brought a new doctrine and philosopy to the world that changed it for the better. Perhaps this is how he "died for our sins."

	22-01-2004 22:06									#44
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Christianity is just one of MANY religions. While I can understand their myopic view that they are the only true religion... everybody else feels the same way about their religion (yes, some religions actually except the fact that you can believe in a god even if you aren't in their specific religion, but most christians don't). Heck, there are many different Christian religions that can't even agree on some things. So BK, your christian moral code is no more universal than anybody elses... and since their is a seperation of Church and State in the US, no single religion should dictate policy. If your version of Christianity doesn't accept same sex marriages... that's fine. You don't have to do them in your church. But to think that your limited moral beliefs should be IMPOSED on the rest of the world is just arogant and ignorant at best. There is no universal moral code... if there was, all the different faiths that believe in a god would all agree on a single moral code... and they don't!.
And that is the reason why there is a seperation of church and state here... I only wish it was as seperate in reality as it is supposed to be in theory.

	22-01-2004 22:09									#45
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Wow, this has to be the first time I agree so much with Ming on a political topic

	22-01-2004 22:19									#46
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To me the fundamental problem with BK's arguemnt is that no Christian Theologian can even disprove a Muslim theologian, nor Jewish Theologian, nor HIndu Theologian, nor Buddhist Theologian, and neither can any of them disprove the Chrsitians.

So basically one is left to chose wich they think is right based on personal choices, NOT on "facts"

	22-01-2004 22:23									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Christianity is just one of MANY religions. While I can understand their myopic view that they are the only true religion... everybody else feels the same way about their religion (yes, some religions actually except the fact that you can believe in a god even if you aren't in their specific religion, but most christians don't). Heck, there are many different Christian religions that can't even agree on some things. So BK, your christian moral code is no more universal than anybody elses... and since their is a seperation of Church and State in the US, no single religion should dictate policy. If your version of Christianity doesn't accept same sex marriages... that's fine. You don't have to do them in your church. But to think that your limited moral beliefs should be IMPOSED on the rest of the world is just arogant and ignorant at best. There is no universal moral code... if there was, all the different faiths that believe in a god would all agree on a single moral code... and they don't!. And that is the reason why there is a seperation of church and state here... I only wish it was as seperate in reality as it is supposed to be in theory.

As you well know, its not as simple as that. If we had to completely separate christian ethos from our current laws we'd have to allow many other practices that are currently illegal (or else provide some other basis upon which to make them again illegal). So long as citizens (who may have opinions based upon their religious beliefs) pass the laws, and not the various Church hierarchies, I dont see the constitutional problem despite my opposition to their discriminatory choices.

	22-01-2004 22:48									#48
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Ming!

Spencer H
A Christian ethos hardly translates to the "church" passing laws...
Of course much law is based on Christian traditions...
This in no way refutes separation of church and state.
Elected officials pass laws... churches do not.

	22-01-2004 22:52									#49
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I think it goes something like this.

There exists good and evil. God gives man freedom to choose. But He will like it if the choice made is good. And He knows that for man to make this choice is not easy because the Devil has a lot of the good tunes.

So He wants to help man out. But in doing so He also does not want to be insistent (as that rather destroys the free will thing). So what He does is to come down to earth with the good word about all the excellent reasons why choosing good is the winning plan. And to convey the fact that He is going to like it if that is the choice made.

But he knows that someone who comes into the world as it is, devoid of all evil and preaching good, will have a hard time. Because of all the evil knocking around. In fact the response of evil is bound to lead to tragedy.

But this is OK. Because by Himself being willing to accept the fundamental aspects of man's lot - pain, humiliation and death - as the price for delivering His message God conveys his love for man and gives His word a really excellent chance to get across.

I am not a Christian but I must say that Jesus is about the most compellingly interesting character I have come across and his story is a gripping one.

The ethic he teaches is also wholly satisfying.

	22-01-2004 23:00									#50
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My problem with Christianity is that few, if any, of its adherents seem to actually practice it. Worse, those same folks seem intent on trying to force other people to practice their bastardized version of it, or of forcing people to accomodate it where it has no place (i.e. science classrooms, secular government policy).

	22-01-2004 23:27									#51
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God is like Buffy? Universal moral code?

only on apolyton

	22-01-2004 23:40									#52
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quote: Originally posted by germanos Jesus did not die for anybodies individual's sin. He was sacrificed to lift humanity from the 'inherited' sin, that came upon humanity when Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge in Paradise.

Original sin (isn't this only Catholic?) is a whole other issue. How can I be held responsible for the actions of Adam and Eve?

Is the problem that Christianity is just incompatable (in any straightforward way) with American conceptions of individual responsibility?

	22-01-2004 23:45									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov My problem with Christianity is that few, if any, of its adherents seem to actually practice it. Worse, those same folks seem intent on trying to force other people to practice their bastardized version of it, or of forcing people to accomodate it where it has no place (i.e. science classrooms, secular government policy).

Actually that's my problem with many Christians. Then I rememeber someone like MLK Jr. and think this problem is not directly the fault of the religion as a whole.

My question was more theological in nature. I don't get the concept.

	23-01-2004 00:54									#54
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Viking Ming! Spencer H A Christian ethos hardly translates to the "church" passing laws... Of course much law is based on Christian traditions... This in no way refutes separation of church and state. Elected officials pass laws... churches do not.

And elected officials who vote on laws based upon their religious-based beliefs are not attacking the constitutional separation of church and state.

If that elected official is also the pope, then we have a problem.

	23-01-2004 01:10									#55
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Spiffor:

No dice. Remember how UR talks about the Trinity? Why do Christians use such a convoluted system? The answer is that it best fits the data at hand. With the Trinity you have one God, in three persons, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy spirit. Three persons in one Godhead.

Now, suppose we killed God the Son, Christ, in his incarnation. Does this mean we have killed all of God? No. Even during the three days of Christ's death, there still existed the Holy Spirit and God the father.

However, your argument also fails to account for the resurrection of Christ. Christ not only rose from the dead, but ascended into heaven, and still sits with God the Father in heaven. That's why Christians say that he will return again to judge the living and the dead.

	23-01-2004 01:18									#56
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I know Christ is said to have revived, it was just a cheap shot

But thanks for telling me about the trinity. It's much more clear for me now. Until your post, I was very confused by it

	23-01-2004 01:20									#57
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The trinity has been confusing religious scholars for centuries

	23-01-2004 01:20									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor But thanks for telling me about the trinity. It's much more clear for me now. Until your post, I was very confused by it

You think it's less confusing now? You're weird.

	23-01-2004 01:27									#59
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quote: So BK, your christian moral code is no more universal than anybody elses...

And Ming, I also agree. By saying the Christian morality applies to everyone does not necessarily exclude other codes. The question comes up is how to reconcile differences in faith.

quote: There is no universal moral code... if there was, all the different faiths that believe in a god would all agree on a single moral code... and they don't!.

That's an excellent point. How can one have a universal moral code, yet have differences among religions? Anyone, even in Christianity, has difficulties to resolve. There are big differences between just Mennonites and Catholics. Some of them are related to tradition, others to preferences in the worship service. Not all of the differences among religions cause problems for a universal moral code and some can be reconciled. The real question is which fall in which category.

I think the Mennonites are the closest, which is why I go to their church, but the fact is likely they do not conform perfectly with what Christianity used to teach. If men were given a perfect morality, would they be able to put the morality into practice perfectly? No.

As for gay marriage, it's up to the people. If the people vote, and say they want gay marriage, then the state will have to abide by that change. I've said that throughout the threads I've posted.

	23-01-2004 01:32									#60
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quote: I don't believe in the magical juju Paul invented to have supersticious people flock to him...

What magic juju?