23-01-2004 01:35									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi As for gay marriage, it's up to the people. If the people vote, and say they want gay marriage, then the state will have to abide by that change. I've said that throughout the threads I've posted.

But the people jumped on your ass on your attempts to give sociologic reasons explaining why gay marriage would be bad for society, as it would be bad for the institutions of marriage.
You still haven't prvoen your bold assertion that gay marriage devaluates marriage as we already know it.

	23-01-2004 01:36									#62
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quote: Christ did not suffer

Why do you say that, Jon?

He most certainly suffered on the cross.

	23-01-2004 01:42									#63
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quote: But this plainly contradicts the very words of the Bible or implies that God is not perfect and can change.

Ned:

Good point. However, this does not rule out God voluntarily limiting himself, in becoming a man.

your second point brings to light, 'this is my blood, which was shed for you, the blood of the new covenant.' However, you must remember, Christ physically died on the cross.

	23-01-2004 01:46									#64
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quote: You still haven't prvoen your bold assertion that gay marriage devaluates marriage as we already know it.

Prove? That's an interesteting word. Can I show you all the effects of that which has not happened yet? No. All I can do is argue that this would be the likely outcome.

However, there are many threads on this topic, yet only one of Christianity. Please keep discussion of that to those other threads.

	23-01-2004 01:47									#65
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What proof do you have BK that Mohammed was not the final prophet of God?

	23-01-2004 01:50									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Prove? That's an interesteting word. Can I show you all the effects of that which has not happened yet? No. All I can do is argue that this would be the likely outcome.

Well, sorry, in my studes we too often take a valid argument for a "proof"

Please simply argue then that it will have dramatic consequences for marriage. For one, tell us what the consequences of gay marriage on hetero marriage will be, IYO. I'm curious to know if you have any argument to back your bold assertion.

	23-01-2004 01:50									#67
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They were all prophets. They all delivered a message of faith.

My problem with religion is that it is built on faith. Yet, most religious people seem really nice... right before the damn you to hell!!!!

	23-01-2004 01:51									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Prove? That's an interesteting word. Can I show you all the effects of that which has not happened yet? No. All I can do is argue that this would be the likely outcome.

Now you're saying that you are a prophet, or some kind of fortune teller?

	23-01-2004 01:54									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Why do you say that, Jon? He most certainly suffered on the cross.

ok, yes He did suffer

but it was not the suffering that earned us forgiveness

JOn Miller

	23-01-2004 01:55									#70
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Muhammed?

If you look at Moslem doctrine, they reject what I have posted that Jesus died on the cross, but rather that he survived, and the disciples rescued him. This has absolutely no basis, because the Roman soldiers, if they crucified someone, would make sure that they killed the person before letting him off the cross.

Thus, they reject the entire notion of the resurrection, and that Christ is the Son of God. If, and only if, Christ is just another of the Jewish prophets, can there be room for Muhammed.

Secondly, all prophets perform miracles of some sort to indicate their calling. Moses had his staff of snakes, Elijah, his burning fire. Muhammed performed no miracles during his time on Earth.

	23-01-2004 01:56									#71
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because Mohammed did not agree with the Bible

Jon Miller

	23-01-2004 02:00									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller because Mohammed did not agree with the Bible

He sure agreed with the Old Testament very much.

	23-01-2004 02:01									#73
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quote: If you look at Moslem doctrine, they reject what I have posted that Jesus died on the cross, but rather that he survived, and the disciples rescued him. This has absolutely no basis

Basis? What basis is there that Jesus DID die on the cross? It's a total he said, she said argument.

quote: all prophets perform miracles of some sort to indicate their calling. Moses had his staff of snakes, Elijah, his burning fire. Muhammed performed no miracles during his time on Earth.

Muhammed didn't have any pyrotechnics thus he's not a prophet? How are we to know that Moses and Whalebow, I mean Elijah, really performed those miracles and just weren't legends added to a powerful prophet? Embelishments... Most of the bible is written centuries after the fact and on hersey.

But, I digress. Ffaith is something that cannot be tackled, it's like you saying this; "p", is the letter "p", and I say, "no it's not."

	23-01-2004 02:04									#74
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quote: Now you're saying that you are a prophet, or some kind of fortune teller?

No. Trying to imply the opposite, that it would take a prophet to show you all those effects.

Spiffor:

I think I've given a rational argument already, but go and post that question in one of those threads, and I'll answer it there.

	23-01-2004 02:06									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I think I've given a rational argument already,

You are so full of yourself.

	23-01-2004 02:07									#76
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It's better than being full of some guy

	23-01-2004 02:11									#77
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Japher:

Think about it for a minute.

Both Moslems and Christians accept that the Romans nailed Christ to a cross. Where they differ, is that the Moslems insist Christ somehow survived. Now, I ask you, how is it possible for Christ to come off that cross alive, when the Romans want to kill Christ?

As for the Old Testament, I throw Spiffor's point at you. The OT prophets indicated their calling by performing miracles. Mohammed did not. Moslems accept that Elijah and Moses did these things as indicated in the Old Testament.

	23-01-2004 02:12									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi go and post that question in one of those threads

Done.

	23-01-2004 02:20									#79
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quote: how is it possible for Christ to come off that cross alive, when the Romans want to kill Christ?

How is it possible for Christ to rise 3 days later and go around having tea with people as they cleaned his feet?

quote: The OT prophets indicated their calling by performing miracles. Mohammed did not. Moslems accept that Elijah and Moses did these things as indicated in the Old Testament.

I don't believe in hocus-pocus and miracles, nor did I ever say that the Moslems weren't full of it either.

My wife's pastor says that one day I will believe. We'll see.

	23-01-2004 02:23									#80
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The closest viable explanation for how Christ carried out his "healings" is that he used chakra techniques. And that only appears to be a viable explanation for those who already understand what chakra is, and if they believe in it.

	23-01-2004 02:24									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi The OT prophets indicated their calling by performing miracles. Mohammed did not.

This does not invalidate MMohammed as a prophet. God didn't grant him any super powers, he only granted him the supposedly true, perfect, and final message.

	23-01-2004 02:25									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Muhammed? If you look at Moslem doctrine, they reject what I have posted that Jesus died on the cross, but rather that he survived, and the disciples rescued him. This has absolutely no basis, because the Roman soldiers, if they crucified someone, would make sure that they killed the person before letting him off the cross. Thus, they reject the entire notion of the resurrection, and that Christ is the Son of God. If, and only if, Christ is just another of the Jewish prophets, can there be room for Muhammed.

So let me get this straight, you believe Jesus was the son of God and ressurected, but it is too far fathced to think a man could be taken down from a cross, cause the Romans always make sure you are dead....

quote: Secondly, all prophets perform miracles of some sort to indicate their calling. Moses had his staff of snakes, Elijah, his burning fire. Muhammed performed no miracles during his time on Earth.

Why would he? He was the final-no need to "prove" he is the messanger of God, since he IS the messanger ofGod, the last one. Tough you can say being chosen to be the one to write the Koran is miraculous, or the expansion of the Muslim faith under him is miraculous- he was a one man show, hwile it took paul to spread Jesus' message.

	23-01-2004 02:27									#83
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Interestingly enough, Muslims accept the virgin birth of Jesus. But of course, Abraham's wife gave birth when 90, which certainly is as miraculous.

Interestingly again, the Jews do NOT accept the virgin birth of Christ.

	23-01-2004 03:20									#84
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar Can someone explain - What was the point of the whole Jesus being Crucified thing? I know Jesus supposedly died for our sins, but How does one suffer in order to earn forgiveness for another for that other's sin? Aren't individuals responsible for their own sins? And if they are not responsible, how can they be held accountable in the first place? God is all powerful, why not just forgive people? What does God suffering really add to the whole forgiveness equation? I don't get it.

Well, you see, Templar...

The God of the OT was not, in fact, the benevolent creator, but rather the Demiurge; scourge of mankind. He ruled man with an iron fist and brought death & destruction to humanity.

Jesus was either (A) the real creator, or (B) His messenger, and he came to show us the true path; the way of love and peace. This is why we must all abstain from sex and other earthly pleasures. We must stop bringing newborn children into this world, for that is what the Demiurge wants: new victims. This world is evil, and only through piousness and devotion to Christ will we be able to die properly and go to Heaven. If we die as the Demiurge wishes, we will simply be endlessly reincarnated into his evil existence.

So, to answer your questions:

(1) Individuals are indeed accountable for their sins, which is why they must strive to abstain from sin, and resist the Demiurge's advances.

(2) The Demiurge will not simply forgive man because he is malevolent; he wishes to see continued suffering rather than peace and love.


......



(I'm sorry if I've insulted any old-school Gnostics with my poor, poor attempt at imitation.)

	23-01-2004 03:50									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Ming The trinity has been confusing religious scholars for centuries

Perhaps because there's no scriptural basis for it.

Like the Christmas tree, the Easter egg and bunny, the three wise men, and so on and so on.

Just read the biography of Michael Servetus, judicially murdered by John Calvin.

The Lutheran reformer Melanchthon, commenting on Servetus's 'De Trinitatis Erroribus', lamented, "As for the Trinity you know I have always feared this would break out some day. Good God, what tragedies this question will excite among those who come after us!"

http://www.uua.org/uuhs/duub/articl...elservetus.html

Must be one of the few occasions the Calvinists conspired with the Holy Inquisition to try to get someone killed.

	23-01-2004 03:52									#86
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quote: The trinity has been confusing religious scholars for centuries

Not always, though. The early Christian church and priests realized they were three distinct beings.

	23-01-2004 05:25									#87
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quote: God didn't grant him any super powers, he only granted him the supposedly true, perfect, and final message.

If all he has is his message, how would people know that the message comes from God?

	23-01-2004 05:29									#88
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quote: How is it possible for Christ to rise 3 days later and go around having tea with people as they cleaned his feet?

Japher:

We would not believe such a thing without the Gospels. There are no alternative explanations that fit the accounts better than the resurrection of Christ.

	23-01-2004 05:31									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi If all he has is his message, how would people know that the message comes from God?

Because:

(A) He was just so damn charismatic and convincing.

(B) He lead the Arabs to surprising military and geopolitcal dominance in a short amount of time, and established an 'empire' that would influence the region for centuries to come.

There is dispute as to whether Jesus actually turned water into wine, or rose from the dead. There is very little dispute, however, that Mohammed led his people to victory at Mecca.

Go Muslim: It Just Makes Sense!

	23-01-2004 05:35									#90
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quote: it is too far fathced to think a man could be taken down from a cross, cause the Romans always make sure you are dead....

Yeah, and the Romans are just going to let the disciples close to Christ so that they can pull him off the cross. They poked his side with a spear and watched the blood and water run from the wound.

quote: Tough you can say being chosen to be the one to write the Koran is miraculous, or the expansion of the Muslim faith under him is miraculous- he was a one man show, hwile it took paul to spread Jesus' message.

Mohammed failed miserably at his message until he started to allow people to raid and plunder caravans in the Mid-East.

Christianity, at least until Constantine, spread through the word, and not the sword, they did not need to force people to convert.

If you believe that Mohammed really wroe the final and absolute testimony, why are you not Moslem?