22-01-2004 10:39									#1
	My big problem with Christianity Tired of ads?

Can someone explain -

What was the point of the whole Jesus being Crucified thing? I know Jesus supposedly died for our sins, but

• How does one suffer in order to earn forgiveness for another for that other's sin? Aren't individuals responsible for their own sins? And if they are not responsible, how can they be held accountable in the first place?
  
• God is all powerful, why not just forgive people? What does God suffering really add to the whole forgiveness equation?
  

	22-01-2004 10:50									#2
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its all about jelly beans.

	22-01-2004 10:53									#3
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going to bed now

my take on it tomorrow

Jon Miller

	22-01-2004 11:01									#4
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quote: God is all powerful, why not just forgive people? What does God suffering really add to the whole forgiveness equation?

That's a good question. It actually came up in my RCIA. I asked the question, but from the opposite perspective. How can a God who is all-good forgive sins without some kind of sacrifice? God hates sin, and someone has to pay the price.

The answer, is that God is all powerful. If he wanted to, he could indeed forgive sins. He is the one who is the offended party, thus he can choose to forgive the offender.

However, the question then becomes, why did God choose the route he did, to have his Son serve as the sacrifice for many?

There are several clues that allow us to approach the answer. First of all, you have to look at the Jewish sacrificial system. Jews would offer sacrifices, as a sign of their contrition, and their request for forgiveness. God does not need their sacrifices, but such sacrifices made it clear that sin is no trifling matter.

However, the problem with these sacrifices, is that they had to be repeated. As animals, they were imperfect, and could not cleanse man of his sins permanently. Only a perfect sacrifice could effect such redemption. This is where Christ comes in.

Christ offered himself, voluntarily, to be the sacrifice, and became a man. He suffered all the temptations of man, yet remained sinless. Thus, when men crucified him on the cross, he remained blameless, and could become the perfect sacrifice for sin.

CS Lewis puts this another way. In order for God to redeem man, he requires a bridge from God to man. Thus, Jesus had to be both God and man, in suffering all of our temptations, yet remaining sinless.

quote: Aren't individuals responsible for their own sins? And if they are not responsible, how can they be held accountable in the first place?

Yes, individuals are held responsible for their own sins. However, God has offered redemption to all those who believe in Christ. Those who refuse this offer of redemption, will remain in their sins, and be judged at the Second Coming.

	22-01-2004 11:07									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi The answer, is that God is all powerful. If he wanted to, he could indeed forgive sins.

The answer, is that God is all powerful. If he wanted to, he could indeed prevent sins.

Perhaps the concept of "sins" is merely a social construct by a bunch of bigoted people on a powerkick in awe that so many people will do what they say.

	22-01-2004 11:17									#6
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quote: Perhaps the concept of "sins" is merely a social construct by a bunch of bigoted people on a powerkick in awe that so many people will do what they say.

Social construct? Sins have nothing to do with society. They transcend society, and apply to everyone, regardless of where they live, and when they live.

	22-01-2004 11:18									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Social construct? Sins have nothing to do with society. They transcend society, and apply to everyone, regardless of where they live, and when they live.

Sins have to do with morals, which have to do with society...

	22-01-2004 11:20									#8
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I said it once, I'll say it again, it's all about the jelly beans!

	22-01-2004 11:21									#9
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Right, but morality does not necessarily limit itself to one society.

	22-01-2004 11:22									#10
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Jeez... Asher's Christian bashing is just as bad as Christians bashing gays.

quote: Right, but morality does not necessarily limit itself to one society.

Each morality does.

	22-01-2004 11:24									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Jeez... Asher's Christian bashing is just as bad as Christians bashing gays.

Now what would be the point of that.

	22-01-2004 11:37									#12
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quote: Each morality does.

Not Christianity. Other moralities may limit themselves to a society, but Christianity applies to everyone.

	22-01-2004 11:39									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Not Christianity. Other moralities may limit themselves to a society, but Christianity applies to everyone.

Christianity applies to Christians.

The Christians have a nasty habit to try to force everyone else to abide by their morals (hence the whole "codify the ban of gay marriages into law" bullshit...).

The mere thought that Christian morals apply to everyone, while other societies' morals have limited scope, really shows how brainwashed you are and just how incapable you are at rational thought.

	22-01-2004 11:43									#14
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quote: force everyone else to abide by their morals

No. Everyone is free to accept or reject what Christianity believes. It still applies to everyone, even if they choose not to believe.

quote: while other societies' morals have limited scope

Sure. Why should Sharia apply to you?

	22-01-2004 11:45									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi No. Everyone is free to accept or reject what Christianity believes. It still applies to everyone, even if they choose not to believe.

Do you understand what morals are? Evidently not.

And if everyone was free to reject what Christianity believes, why can't I marry my boyfriend?

quote: Sure. Why should Sharia apply to you?

I concede they have limited scope, all morals do. Including Christianity.

Only a moron with a clouded mind infused with bullshit bigotry from his Mennonite bretheren would think Christanity's morals are somehow superior and take precedence over everyone else's.

	22-01-2004 11:49									#16
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quote: I concede they have limited scope, all morals do. Including Christianity.

Now we have a real topic to debate!

Are there any objective morals that apply to all peoples?

I think I can find one. What about the principle, 'all people should be equal before the law?'

	22-01-2004 11:50									#17
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That doesn't apply to all people. There are countless cultures that treat men and women differently, for example.

Also, some primitive cultures treat people differently depending on the gender of their mate.

	22-01-2004 11:54									#18
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quote: There are countless cultures that treat men and women differently, for example.

So it would then be fine for our own culture to treat men and women differently, assuming morals are cultural?

	22-01-2004 11:55									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So it would then be fine for our own culture to treat men and women differently, assuming morals are cultural?

Who said anything about something being fine?

You don't seem to comprehend the gravity of this debate. Saying something is "fine" or not is again a question of morals.

All I'm saying is different cultures, different religions, and different people all have different morals.

The concept that everyone in the world is subject to Christian morals is beyond ridiculous, but rather correct if you look at the legal system in the US where Christians have codified their morals into the law for the most part.

	22-01-2004 12:17									#20
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quote: The concept that everyone in the world is subject to Christian morals is beyond ridiculous,

Why is it ridiculous? What is wrong with the statement?

	22-01-2004 12:18									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Why is it ridiculous? What is wrong with the statement?

Hmm. What's not wrong with the statement?

	22-01-2004 12:23									#22
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Someone needs to say that something is morally wrong.

You need objective morality in order to deny objective morality.

	22-01-2004 12:32									#23
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No, you don't. You can safely assume that if somebody never makes contact with any civilization, he does not follow Christian morals.

You're making this more complicated than it actually is, perhaps in a desperate act of smoke and mirrors.

	22-01-2004 12:35									#24
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quote: You can safely assume that if somebody never makes contact with any civilization, he does not follow Christian morals.

Thank you.

If God is omnipotent, then this assumption is not safe.

	22-01-2004 12:39									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Thank you. If God is omnipotent, then this assumption is not safe.

The assumption that God is omnipotent is not safe to begin with, therefore there is no reason we should expect God to be omnipotent and all people on this earth to have native Christian morals (particularly when evidence is to the contrary).

QED.

	22-01-2004 13:31									#26
	Re: My big problem with Christianity Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by The Templar Can someone explain - What was the point of the whole Jesus being Crucified thing? I know Jesus supposedly died for our sins, but How does one suffer in order to earn forgiveness for another for that other's sin? Aren't individuals responsible for their own sins? And if they are not responsible, how can they be held accountable in the first place? God is all powerful, why not just forgive people? What does God suffering really add to the whole forgiveness equation? I don't get it.

Jesus did not die for anybodies individual's sin. He was sacrificed to lift humanity from the 'inherited' sin, that came upon humanity when Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge in Paradise.
God got pissed, and cursed Adam and Eve, and their offspring for all eterity, until he would send 'the Savior' to earth.
In essence, Jesus had to die because God, in a fit of anger, had decided to haunt humanity for the sin commited by the two imperfect creatures he made.


Why God put such emphasis on suffering and sacrifice for Mankind to be allowed (back) in Paradise is beyond me as well. I guess its the divine way to say 'Thank You'.

	22-01-2004 13:48									#27
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Oh! Oh! I have a profound theological question too!

Could God microwave a burrito that was so hot that even He could not eat it?

mmm, burritos...

jon.

	22-01-2004 15:01									#28
	Re: Re: My big problem with Christianity Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by germanos Jesus did not die for anybodies individual's sin. He was sacrificed to lift humanity from the 'inherited' sin, that came upon humanity when Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge in Paradise.

This is the part I don't get (actually, this is one of the parts I don't get ). Surely God knew what Adam and Eve were going to do -- even I predicted that they would eat from that tree. Com'on, see what happened when Ming made a thread and wrote "do not post in this thread?"

quote: Originally posted by germanos God got pissed, and cursed Adam and Eve, and their offspring for all eterity, until he would send 'the Savior' to earth.

Two problems here. One, even we do not hold people responsible for things their ancestors do. I assume YHWH is far more enlightened than us? Two, a lot of us did not choose to sin, so this posts a huge problem to the doctrine of freewill.

quote: Originally posted by germanos In essence, Jesus had to die because God, in a fit of anger, had decided to haunt humanity for the sin commited by the two imperfect creatures he made.

But... Jesus is also God as part of the Trinity, so why go about this in such an absolutely contrived fashion?

	22-01-2004 15:22									#29
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UR:

I do't get it either

God from the Old Testament isn't a very nice person. Rather vengefull (?) if you ask me.

'God made us all to be just like him. So if we're dumb, then God is dumb...'

-Frank Zappa: 'Dumb all over'

	22-01-2004 15:36									#30
	Re: My big problem with Christianity Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by The Templar Can someone explain - What was the point of the whole Jesus being Crucified thing? I know Jesus supposedly died for our sins, but How does one suffer in order to earn forgiveness for another for that other's sin? Aren't individuals responsible for their own sins? And if they are not responsible, how can they be held accountable in the first place? God is all powerful, why not just forgive people? What does God suffering really add to the whole forgiveness equation? I don't get it.

It's a guilt trip. We killed Gods son, you see, and now get to spend the rest of eternity feeling bad about it.