23-01-2004 04:16									#31
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abortion: the other way of removing a parasite feeding off of your body.

	23-01-2004 04:19									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer the problem Patroklos is that usually, we're talking about fairly young women here who have been mis-educated by Democrat-controlled local, urban school districts and a pro-abortion media which causes many Black women to not realize the full implications of their actions until it is too late.

And not forgetting the hateful white liberal picket lines around drugstores, pharmacies, condom vending machines and family planning clinics.

And that Hillary Clinton feminazi beeyatch, preventing those poor African American sisters from crossing their legs, saying no, or using the contraceptive pill and making their men wear condoms.

Yawn.

Speer passes the buck on to the Democrats- right they're really preventing the bros in da 'hood from taking some personal responsibility about when and where they deposit their sperm.

In Britain these jokers are called baby fathers- they see the first act of the play, but don't stop for the remaining four of the five act tragedy.

	23-01-2004 05:02									#33
	Re: Roe v Wade: an interesting article from Philosophy Now. Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Anyway, I confidently predict that no Apolytoner will change his or her opinion on reading this article - more's the pity.

No one is going to change there position because the article doesn't give a position.

I still say that abortion is a legislative issue, not a constitutional one, and that I don't support either side.

	23-01-2004 05:03									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed The point the section about procreation is missing is that the reason we allow mentally handicapped people to procreate is not the inalienable right to equality but the fact that doing otherwise would be unjust as it would grant a group less power based on their identity. The same argument is, of course, the one I prefer for being pro-choice. Since pro-lifers are all right-wing, wouldn't it make sense that like all other right-wing policies it lessens the power of an oppressed group?

	23-01-2004 05:04									#35
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quote: Originally posted by GePap "The full implications"? If your sisters listened to those liberals they would not be getting pregnant as often-since they would practice safe sex- but you conservatives act like if people didn;t have sex, so you demand sex ed be cut, and thus allow for more abortions by sticking your fingers in your ears and going blah, blah, blah.

I want sex ed to be cut because it's stupid and boring

	23-01-2004 05:05									#36
	Re: Re: Roe v Wade: an interesting article from Philosophy Now. Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by skywalker No one is going to change there position because the article doesn't give a position.

Yes, one could be like me and become rather sceptical about the whole business.

	23-01-2004 05:08									#37
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Sex ed should be about positions and how to use your hands and mouth and elbows and what the various devices are and how to keep from getting pregnant.

	23-01-2004 05:09									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Agathon: That is an interesting arguement. If one defines personhood at ensoulment, which is a religious matter, then the state cannot rule one month more valid than any other, because ensoulment has to do with one's religious beliefs.

His point as I read it is that ensoulment is mandated by the law as the ground of rights.

That's not to say it is true or not, that's just what the law says on this interpretation. That is not a religious matter. However, just when ensoulment takes place is a religious matter.

It's a cunning argument, as I said.

Where's ****ing Imran when he's wanted?

	23-01-2004 05:12									#39
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Sex ed should be about positions and how to use your hands and mouth and elbows and what the various devices are and how to keep from getting pregnant.

Sex ed should be like the class in Monty Python's Meaning of Life with the added modification that if the teacher is a fox, the students get to bang her over a desk.

There, that should raise young Skywalker's spirits.

	23-01-2004 05:19									#40
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Agathon:

What do you think of my critique of his earlier argument against the prolifers? I actually like his analysis of natural law, it's much more sensible.

	23-01-2004 05:19									#41
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Sex ed should be about positions and how to use your hands and mouth and elbows and what the various devices are and how to keep from getting pregnant.

with pictures

	23-01-2004 05:32									#42
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dp

	23-01-2004 05:34									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I don't think he's wrong. The majority of pro-lifers I know are like that, but unreflectively so it's a reasonably fair description in my book. I don't think it's ad hominem either, he's not impugning their position by impugning their character. I don't think he's doing anything other than reporting beliefs here. But you are right the NL argument is more interesting.

	23-01-2004 05:46									#44
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Agathon:

I agree that he is not insulting the prolifers, but rather, he is attacking the person, and not the arguement. He never actually addresses the argument that abortion is murder.

However, I will tell you that the most intelligent prolifers I know make the argument from natural law personally, thought publicly, they prefer to argue on more secular grounds.

	23-01-2004 05:50									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Agathon: I agree that he is not insulting the prolifers, but rather, he is attacking the person, and not the arguement. He never actually addresses the argument that abortion is murder.

He gives an account of the position, but I don't see him attacking them personally.

More later...

	23-01-2004 06:00									#46
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Ernt!

I know what I'm trying to say.

Attack ! = Insult.

By attacking the person, his argument focusses solely on what people who are labelled 'prolifers' believe, and not the specific argument claiming abortion as murder.

Any clearer?

	23-01-2004 06:10									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Ernt! I know what I'm trying to say. Attack ! = Insult. By attacking the person, his argument focusses solely on what people who are labelled 'prolifers' believe, and not the specific argument claiming abortion as murder.

But everyone knows that argument. He's just pointing out that most pro-lifers while accepting that position are not as clear on whether it allows abortion for health reasons or in the case of incest.

	23-01-2004 06:19									#48
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That's very true. It means that prolifers in general need to do more work in educating people who are supposed to be on our side.

However, I would have liked to see him address the very effective prolife argument, that does allow for the exception for the life of the mother but not for health reasons.

	23-01-2004 06:27									#49
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abortion should be allowed to 2 yrs of age.

	23-01-2004 06:30									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Sex ed should be like the class in Monty Python's Meaning of Life with the added modification that if the teacher is a fox, the students get to bang her over a desk.

'We'll take foreplay as read darling.'

'It's an ocarina, sir.'

	23-01-2004 08:58									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed abortion: the other way of removing a parasite feeding off of your body.

Ok, I'm moderately pro-choice.

But how the hell can anyone be such an extreme reductionist in this manner, and oversimplify the significant issues a woman has to suffer through when making a decision on whether or not to have an abortion??

	23-01-2004 09:08									#52
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easy. babies are terrifying parasites that pop out of a person and then systematically and progressively ruin their lives before turning into hosts for future parasites.

but, mr fun: that's not quite what i think. it's a bit of black comedy, like dead baby jokes:

spoiler(highlight to read): how many babies does it take to paint a house? depends on how hard you throw them.

more seriously, i'm not quite pro-choice, because i think abortion is a heinous deed; but the government also has no business legislating something like this: some don't think the baby is sentient, and therefore can be flushed out; others think that a baby is still a baby, and so can't. until that's resolved, the government cannot legislate on that matter.

	23-01-2004 09:16									#53
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Whether or not the government "has any business legislating this", I still don't see how it is a constitutional issue. The "right to privacy" just doesn't hold water for me. Let the state legislatures decides.

EDIT: on second thought, the recent case of Ohio may make that a bad idea

	23-01-2004 23:45									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed but, mr fun: that's not quite what i think. it's a bit of black comedy, like dead baby jokes: spoiler(highlight to read): how many babies does it take to paint a house? depends on how hard you throw them.

Ah -- you meant tasteless, cruel jokes, right? I'm sure women who went through an abortion would find these jokes hilarious.

	23-01-2004 23:51									#55
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quote: the recent case of Ohio may make that a bad idea

So states rights when you agree with the states, and not when they disagree? Perhaps abortion should not be left up to the states, eh?

	24-01-2004 00:14									#56
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Gentlemen, where should I stand on abortion? Convince me!!

	24-01-2004 00:22									#57
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quote: Originally posted by TCO abortion should be allowed to 2 yrs of age.

for the south, up to the 200th trimester sounds like a good idea

	24-01-2004 00:41									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So states rights when you agree with the states, and not when they disagree? Perhaps abortion should not be left up to the states, eh?

notice the

	24-01-2004 02:47									#59
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Agathon - interesting article, though there are several bits at the start that are not very serious. Especially the tautology claim. You could take the phrase "You have the right not to be killed by a gun shot, because you have a right to life" and phrase it : ""You have the right not to be killed by a gunshot, because you have the right not to be killed by a gun shot." And by the author's standards that would be a tautology.

One other arguement there I didn't like though.


But I do understand Kenobi's point - The author doesn't deal with the issue standing. You can summarise it in two major parts:

1) showing that the current arguements don't stand a logical test
2) showing that higher judicial and moral arguements have serious semantics problems. It doesn't really deal with the question in hand, but rather shows the judicial and moral difficulties when trying to solve it.

But I enjoyed it still.

	24-01-2004 03:03									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Agathon - interesting article, though there are several bits at the start that are not very serious. Especially the tautology claim. You could take the phrase "You have the right not to be killed by a gun shot, because you have a right to life" and phrase it : ""You have the right not to be killed by a gunshot, because you have the right not to be killed by a gun shot." And by the author's standards that would be a tautology.

That's not quite his argument, which is logically valid. People who do make that particular mistake do so unreflectively.

quote: One other arguement there I didn't like though. But I do understand Kenobi's point - The author doesn't deal with the issue standing. You can summarise it in two major parts: 1) showing that the current arguements don't stand a logical test

It would take a much longer article to do that, though.

quote: 2) showing that higher judicial and moral arguements have serious semantics problems. It doesn't really deal with the question in hand, but rather shows the judicial and moral difficulties when trying to solve it.

The legal arguments are somewhat different because they are based on legal precedent, no matter how morally coherent that is. I think he has a reasonable case that the constitution is based on a particular theology and if that is the case, so is the law. Presumably this would be a good reason for changing it, but it doesn't stop someone from making good legal arguments from this basis.

quote: But I enjoyed it still.

Great. Glad to make someone's day better than worse.