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Elok
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Land of Ramen Dragons
Mar 2003
time: 00:33
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That is a rather interesting all-in-all there. Some things don't make sense though. If a fetus is indeed a human being, abortion to save the life of the mother is analogous to killing in self-defense, i.e. permissible if unpleasant. The problem of clinic bombings is much more than reciprocity, as bystanders are inevitably hurt or killed, many innocent or only compliant, not the killers themselves. Such actions also have the base intent of terrorism much of the time, to frighten and intimidate, not simply to eliminate a baby-butcher's shop, which would be more reasonable. Shooting the doctors is still a gray area IMO.
Oh, and Albert, it's kinda hard to feel sympathetic to your cause if you shrug at the news that people in general are dying, but fly into fervor when you realize BLACK people are dying...
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:33
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quote:
Oh, and Albert, it's kinda hard to feel sympathetic to your cause if you shrug at the news that people in general are dying, but fly into fervor when you realize BLACK people are dying... |
i dont shrug off others dying through abortion... i just like to bring race into the matter because the pro-abortionists are most likely liberal and by extension of them being liberals, they are probably ultra-sensitive to racial issues so accusing them of racism really gets into them...
look at chegitz. i clearly exposed what he is hiding from himself (the fact that he is a racist) and he can not deal with this so he simply puts me on ignore. it's sad really.
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:33
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Agathon:
he has proven to me many times that he is a racist. his marrying a black woman occured after a several year long relationship (not wanting to actually go through with marrying the women I guess?). he may just be trying to prove to himself he's not racist.
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:33
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quote:
In this deceitful American game of power politics, the Negroes (i.e., the race problem, the integration and civil rights issues) are nothing but tools, used by one group of whites called Liberals against another group of whites called Conservatives, either to get into power or to remain in power. Among whites here in America, the political teams are no longer divided into Democrats and Republicans. The whites who are now struggling for control of the American political throne are divided into "liberal" and "conservative" camps. The white liberals from both parties cross party lines to work together toward the same goal, and white conservatives from both parties do likewise.
The white liberal differs from the white conservative only in one way: the liberal is more deceitful than the conservative. The liberal is more hypocritical than the conservative. Both want power, but the white liberal is the one who has perfected the art of posing as the Negro's friend and benefactor; and by winning the friendship, allegiance, and support of the Negro, the white liberal is able to use the Negro as a pawn or tool in this political "football game" that is constantly raging between the white liberals and white conservatives.
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Agathon
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Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
quote:
That's not quite his argument, which is logically valid. People who do make that particular mistake do so unreflectively. |
I didn't get that sentance.
Do you agree with his arguement? Did i get it wrong?
Can you explain why is his tautology claim correct? |
Sure. This is the argument?
quote:
A woman has the right to control her own body. Though the reasoning is much older, the feminist author Susan Brownmiller attributes the precise wording to Patricia Maginnis, founder of an illegal abortion referral service in California in the years prior to Roe. As a defense of abortion rights, however, the argument is either demonstrably false or logically meaningless. Even if we grant the contentious point that the fetus is part of the woman's body, it's simply untrue that American citizens, male or female, exercise absolute sovereignty over their own bodies. If that were the case, not only would 49 states have to join Nevada in the legalization of prostitution, they would also have to permit the selling of internal organs for transplant - which would in turn warrant the bodily exploitation of poor people by wealthy people. For good reason, therefore, there's no right to absolute bodily sovereignty. However, if we take Maginnis's words in a weaker sense - specifically, that a woman's right to control her body extends to include the right to terminate a pregnancy - we're left with a tautology: a woman should have the right to an abortion because a woman has the right to an abortion |
Point 1. The pro-lifers assert that a woman has absolute sovereignty over her own body. They infer from this that she has a right to abort because denying her that right would be to deny her sovereignty over her own body.
Point 2. It's simply false that people have absolute sovereignty over their own bodies. He points out that organ selling is immoral and that is enough to invalidate the absolutist claim (if you don't buy the organ selling example it's pretty easy to come up with others).
Conclusion 1. We are left without a notion of what sovereignty over one's body extends to.
Point 3. Someone might assert that sovereignty over one's body extends to the right to have an abortion.
but
Conclusion 2. But without giving some independent reason as to why it extends to having the right to have an abortion, the pro-lifer is basically asserting that women have a right to an abortion because they have a right to an abortion. This is called by philosophers begging the question since the conclusion is essentially the same as one of the premises.
It's a tautology because it's just repeating the same claim without actually drawing an inference. It's like saying "triangles are triangles because they are triangles". If I say "I conclude that women have the right to an abortion from the fact that they have a right to an abortion" I have just repeated the same claim twice instead of providing an argument.
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Bereta_Eder
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Ah! TCO... The man who regularly sends me PM's asking me to intervene to teh mods to have him unbanned. Isn't that like asking a drowning man to save you from being drowned or something
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24-01-2004 04:07
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