26-01-2004 09:34									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi That would be cruel and unusual punishment.

Not really. IIRC, It's actually used in several states as a condition for the parole of people convicted of sex crimes.

	26-01-2004 09:43									#92
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I support chemical castration for repeated sex offenders...

	26-01-2004 09:56									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Was responding to GP's idea that if he's going to change, it wasn't going to be from an attempt at rehabilition.

You are misrepresenting my point. I did not say that. I said rehab attempts had poor results. Perhaps, because people don't change much. You are jumping further down the track.

I mostly just want to punish the ****er.

	26-01-2004 09:58									#94
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"But I do think that there is a chance, he will change his ways. Won't have anything to do with reform or rehabilitation or interventions."

	26-01-2004 10:02									#95
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And why exactly do you say that rehabilitation must have poor results? Particularly for a 15 year old kid?

quote: Perhaps, because people don't change much.

I think I've changed a lot in the 4 years since I was 15.

quote: I mostly just want to punish the ****er.

Because you genuinely believe that putting the kid through a lot of **** for the rest of his life will genuinely make society better off, or out of revenge for his acts?

	26-01-2004 10:17									#96
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quote: Originally posted by TCO rehabilitation is a miserable failure. Ask your texas counsel, lefty.

That does not mean rehab doesn't work, it's just the way them Texans do it doesn't.

	26-01-2004 10:18									#97
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Right.

	26-01-2004 10:23									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger That does not mean rehab doesn't work, it's just the way them Texans do it doesn't.

We could shoot him and charge the family for the bullet as the Chinese government does.

	26-01-2004 10:24									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo And why exactly do you say that rehabilitation must have poor results? Particularly for a 15 year old kid? I think I've changed a lot in the 4 years since I was 15. Because you genuinely believe that putting the kid through a lot of **** for the rest of his life will genuinely make society better off, or out of revenge for his acts?

not to change him, but to punish him. If he decides to change fine. But for now, he earned a punishment.

	26-01-2004 10:24									#100
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quote: We could shoot him and charge the family for the bullet as the Chinese government does.

	26-01-2004 11:50									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Tiamat As opposed to raping your mother Yeah ok.....

What he did was bad. That doesn't nessecitate trying to do something cruel to him.

	26-01-2004 11:52									#102
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I still have yet to see proof of this. I still think it's some perverted publicity stunt.

	26-01-2004 13:41									#103
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quote: not to change him, but to punish him. If he decides to change fine. But for now, he earned a punishment.

Is there any particular methodology to your desire to punish, or is it just a base, retributive urge?

	26-01-2004 13:41									#104
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I can just see this conversation when he gets back to juvie hall:

Inmate: "You motherf**cker!"
Kid: "Yes....and your point is?"

	26-01-2004 17:28									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Is there any particular methodology to your desire to punish, or is it just a base, retributive urge?

"methodology" is not the right term here. Also, you continue to try to put in loaded emotional terms. I let you get away with it before with "revenge".

	26-01-2004 17:36									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi What he did was bad. That doesn't nessecitate trying to do something cruel to him.

How would it be cruel?

	26-01-2004 17:49									#107
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IOW, yes.

	26-01-2004 17:52									#108
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By the way, can I ask questions like,

"Are you satisfied with all the damage that your soft on crime attitide does? Are you happy that criminals (including the m-f that car-jacked me) get that trickle-down message that they are oppressed by society?"

You and I can probably have some useful discussion about whether it is moral to steal a loaf of bread for a starving baby. For a simple-minded criminal (and there are lots of them) and "eye for an eye" is a better ethic to promulgate.

	26-01-2004 21:34									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Kull I can just see this conversation when he gets back to juvie hall: Inmate: "You motherf**cker!" Kid: "Yes....and your point is?"

	26-01-2004 22:25									#110
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quote: "methodology" is not the right term here. Also, you continue to try to put in loaded emotional terms. I let you get away with it before with "revenge".

Just trying to get a rational justification for a presumably harsh punishment from you ("he deserves it" ain't good enough).

quote: You and I can probably have some useful discussion about whether it is moral to steal a loaf of bread for a starving baby. For a simple-minded criminal (and there are lots of them) and "eye for an eye" is a better ethic to promulgate.

Do you honestly think that this kid was thinking deeply about legal consequences before raping his mother? Most violent crime is spontaneous, and if the perps are thinking about legal consequences, they don't think they're going to get caught. An eye for an eye only leaves criminals even more dangerous when leave prison with the system seen as naturally vindictive (it always has interested me that if a man kills another man out of revenge he's killed by the state, while if the state kills a man out of revenge, it's to be praised).

	26-01-2004 22:31									#111
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quote: Is there any particular methodology to your desire to punish, or is it just a base, retributive urge?

Well of course, it's a moral view of punishments (dammit, forget the technical term... Crim Law book is at home). You earn punishments by breaking the law because you commit a moral wrong and thus have to pay it back. Something like that.

And yes, it IS good enough to say 'he deserves it'.

	26-01-2004 22:39									#112
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That's like saying revenge is fundamentally moral. That's an odd position to take.

	26-01-2004 23:15									#113
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quote: That's like saying revenge is fundamentally moral. That's an odd position to take.

Why? I don't see why revenge is immoral in way, shape, or form.

	26-01-2004 23:20									#114
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There is only one answer to dealing with a rapist/monster.

Dr Curt prescribes a few lead injections from this.

	26-01-2004 23:21									#115
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I oppose the death penalty -- even in this case.

	26-01-2004 23:26									#116
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quote: Why? I don't see why revenge is immoral in way, shape, or form.

I see it as immoral because the use of revenge in social interactions decreases net freedom. Extreme violence isn't going to stop with more extreme violence. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, and all that spiel.

	26-01-2004 23:32									#117
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quote: I see it as immoral because the use of revenge in social interactions decreases net freedom.

So? So do social security security programs, but you won't find many saying those are immoral.

	26-01-2004 23:36									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: We could shoot him and charge the family for the bullet as the Chinese government does.

Wait, you mean charge the victim? (remember who he raped...)

Wow Imran, so much compassion for this woman.

	26-01-2004 23:37									#119
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And while we are on the theme of the victim..maybe this womna does not want her son killed:

sorry mam, he raped you, we think he is hopeless, so we will kill your son. Have a nice day.

	26-01-2004 23:40									#120
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quote: So? So do social security security programs, but you won't find many saying those are immoral.

They usually don't. If old people have no pensions, and have to live off the streets, have to starve, they're not in the least free. Young people generally won't become homeless and starve because of payroll taxes. So, SS is a net increase in freedom.