20-04-2004 21:06									#61
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Ah damn, so we can't call you King of Corruption any more!

	20-04-2004 22:45									#62
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A couple of clarification questions, alexman...

1. Is non-communal d equal to max(x,y) plus half min(x,y) (as it's written), or the average of max(x,y) and min(x,y), merely a () away?

2. If it's the latter, couldn't it be written as d = (x+y)/2 (which strengthens my suspicion that it's the former )?

Great work on this key issue, all of you that did the research.

	20-04-2004 22:52									#63
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Your suspicion is hereby confirmed (it's as written).

	21-04-2004 01:24									#64
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On rounding, If it works the way I think it does for Commercial, it does make a strategic difference and might do in other circumstances.

The 10% goverment-depenadant bonus could also round to 0,1 or 2 and the difference could well affect the choice between Monarchy and Republic.

Take the example of Demigod on a small map. That gives an OCN of 11.9 (17*0.7) before rounding. I think that means the OCN would be 11 and the bonus for Commercial would be 2. That looks like enough to make the trait much less useful.

If the rounding for goverments worked differently and was applied before rounding down then a 10% bonus would change 11.9 to 13.09 and the bonus for Republic over Monarchy might also be 2. That would make the corruption difference significant in the choice of goverment.

I'm not saying that we need to have this information or I would have tested for it myself. But it's not strategically insignificant. The next time I'm faced with that kind of choice, I'll think about testing for it.

	21-04-2004 08:48									#65
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I'm putting together an easy to use (hopefully) spreadsheet that will allow a few variables to be swiped in for each city and give the player the ability to look at a table of cities, keeping all the variables general, so the player can easily look at what a government change might do for corruption. So, just checking to see if I've got the distance formula in right, a city with x=11, y=3, connected to the capital under Republic on a Huge map with both courthouse and police station should have a da of 3 and distance component of 3.75%, right?

Last edited by Solomwi on 21-04-2004 at 09:06

	21-04-2004 12:23									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi So, just checking to see if I've got the distance formula in right, a city with x=11, y=3, connected to the capital under Republic on a Huge map with both courthouse and police station should have a da of 3 and distance component of 3.75%, right?

I guess it depends where the rounding comes in. D is 12.5, so does that round down to 12? If not, da will be 3.125....does that then round to 3? If so, then 3.75% would be correct by my reckoning....but we should wait for the Emperor's confirmation

	21-04-2004 17:03									#67
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Distance for sure rounds down. We know that from the RCP exploit in PTW.

As for the rest of the calculations, they sometimes round to the nearest integer in intermediate calculations, and sometimes round down.

	21-04-2004 18:33									#68
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If anybody wants to play with, tweak, correct or use this, by all means feel free. Just send me any corrections you find to make via pm, please.

Attachment: empire manager.zip
This has been downloaded 24 time(s).

	26-04-2004 04:33									#69
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This is now in the Must Read threads. Great job alexman et al!!

	29-04-2004 04:48									#70
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Thanks a bunch. As the new MOI for the poly team in the c3c demo game, this will be most usefull as we begin our REX.

--GK

	01-07-2004 20:00									#71
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OK, can I just get these statements confirmed so I can see if I'm absorbing all this information properly.

1) Increasing the number of cities in a non-communal empire doesn't increase the corruption in the core cities (assuming you don't move the palace), because their rank number will remain unchanged.

2) If you had a bazillion cities then a democracy will overall be more efficient than a communism because you retain efficient core cities, while in a communism those core cities will have rampant rank corruption.

3) The most corrupt city can still have 30% efficiency if it has a Courthouse and a Police Station in it.


What is more efficient for various empire sizes? Communism or Democracy?

	01-07-2004 20:07									#72
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1) True

2) It depends on the number 'bazillion'. For the purposes what you can do in the game, Communism is better than Democracy as you get more cities, because the modified OCN for communism is so much higher. If 'bazillion' means 'tends to infinity' then your statement is correct, although there is a hard-coded limit on the number of cities in Civ3.

3) True.

Communism versus Democracy in general: Democracy is better for commerce, and Communism is better for production. However, Communism comes close to Democracy in commerce for very large empires, and Democracy is better than Communism in production for smallish empires.

	01-07-2004 20:44									#73
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Thanks man.

And because this is one of my first posts in the forum, may I say thanks for all the fine strategy I've been able to read because of your efforts (and those of others) .

	06-07-2004 04:27									#74
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A few tweaks and minor updates to the spreadsheet posted above. Aqualung71 gets a big for noticing a couple problems and fixing them. It's still not quite perfect on the calculations, but is getting there.

Attachment: update.zip
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	01-10-2004 02:53									#75
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Is there any way to "destroy" the FP besides bombing the city and hope you get it? I built it in the city right next to my capital, and now I want to build it in the land where Germany was. I just killed them, and it takes forever to make anything there.

	01-10-2004 08:17									#76
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C3C or earlier? It makes a huge difference.

If C3C (and I presume so, given the thread), don't worry about it, unless you want to shift your Palace a little farther away. The major benefit is the OCN increase, and not the distance decrease.

If Civ3/PTW, build your palace (hopefully by rushing) in the German territory.

Either way, you'll have to move your Palace, not the FP, unless I'm missing something.

	15-01-2005 05:31									#77
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For some reason the selections in the updated version don't work for me. Can someone submit a fixed version?

	16-01-2005 11:29									#78
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The spreadsheet, you mean? I haven't had any problems with the selections, using Excel 2003. Here's the latest, but not having any problems with it, there hasn't been any fix on the selections. Let me know if it doesn't work.

Attachment: extended empire manager.xls
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	16-01-2005 12:11									#79
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Solomwi, there's a problem with the latest version. The mpa size tab starts out as Huge, but when you click the dropw down menu, it only gives you the choice of "yes" or "no". Also, the difficulty level only allows for Demigod through Sid.

(BTW: your avatar is way cool....and matches my sig )

	16-01-2005 13:23									#80
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Very helpful post!

So every time we build a corruption wonder it's like adding a second palace and distance corruption always uses the distance to the closest 'palace'?

	17-01-2005 01:00									#81
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It's not like adding a second palace for number of cities corruption, of course, but yes, it's like a second palace for distance corruption.

	17-01-2005 01:16									#82
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That's what I get for pretty much playing exclusively huge monarch maps.


Not sure how that happened, but the cell references had just gotten jumbled up a bit. I fixed both problems, and my apologies for doubting SirOsis.

Attachment: extended empire manager.xls
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	17-01-2005 21:58									#83
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Excellent. Thanks for the fix. Now I can delve deeper into corruption.

	17-01-2005 22:52									#84
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As I'm delving I've got some questions. If I have it right building the FP affects rank corruption? Is it only in that city? Or does it affect surrounding cities?

	18-01-2005 00:10									#85
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It increases the Optimal City Number, which reduces the effects of rank corruption. It does not affect any one city per se, but rather the global formula that affects all of them.

	18-01-2005 00:25									#86
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Right, as I understand it. It lessens rank corruption empire-wide by increasing the OCN, and lessens distance corruption on a per-city basis for those cities that are closer to it than to the palace.

My apologies again, SO, and glad to see you putting it to good use.

	18-01-2005 06:56									#87
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It is also a minus 70% to max corruption in the city in which it's built.

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep It increases the Optimal City Number, which reduces the effects of rank corruption. It does not affect any one city per se, but rather the global formula that affects all of them.

	18-01-2005 22:24									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi Right, as I understand it. It lessens rank corruption empire-wide by increasing the OCN, and lessens distance corruption on a per-city basis for those cities that are closer to it than to the palace. My apologies again, SO, and glad to see you putting it to good use.

So the FP is considered another capital in regards to distance corruption? I'm having trouble getting the city ranks right. Is it only distance from the capital that determines a city rank?

	18-01-2005 22:41									#89
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FP in Conquest does not give a new set of city ranks.

There's two forms of corruption:

Distance based (FP helps by taking the min value)

City Rank from the Capital (FP increases the OCN)

And there are also max values:

90% anything

Each Corruption Fighting Improvement : -10%
Each Corruption Fighting Small Wonder / Palace : -70%

Court Houses / Police Stations / WLTPD [Shields only] also decrease the effective City Rank of the city with them.

	19-01-2005 01:56									#90
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quote: Originally posted by SirOsis So the FP is considered another capital in regards to distance corruption? I'm having trouble getting the city ranks right. Is it only distance from the capital that determines a city rank?

What I've done to get the ranks right is input distance to palace for every city, then sort the cities by d (ascending), then founding date (descending for BC cities, ascending for AD cities), then change d for those closer to the FP. It requires you to do it twice, once for cities founded in BC and once for cities founded in AD, so it's not really a very good method, but I haven't really taken the time to allow input for distance to both palace and FP, which I really need to do, to better model an empire with a FP. The formulae themselves shouldn't be difficult.

Up until recently, I wasn't sure if anybody was using it, so the push to more accurately model the FP placement wasn't very urgent.