02-02-2004 05:19									#31
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Let's rush the Galley.

For 120 gold?

	02-02-2004 08:12									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Trip For 120 gold?

Do a cost-benefit analysis. What is WW going to cost us over the next 6 turns or so until we get a galley in position to kill GCA?

At this point I'd say yes. Though, are there any warriors or anything in the area we can disband in EQ to make the galley slightly cheaper?

	02-02-2004 08:41									#33
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit Do a cost-benefit analysis. What is WW going to cost us over the next 6 turns or so until we get a galley in position to kill GCA? At this point I'd say yes. Though, are there any warriors or anything in the area we can disband in EQ to make the galley slightly cheaper?

You also have to factor in the possibility that killing that Galley still won't get us peace...

Besides, the GCA Galley could start heading straight south and we wouldn't be able to catch it with our 120 gold Galley anyways. What then?

	02-02-2004 09:04									#34
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To deal with the landed GCA Spearman we should try to block off as many tiles as we can. We can block its movement 8, 9 and 6 with Knights, move MI MJW to 7-7 in case they try to kill not_panag, then have Alva and Ennet at 3-3 in case they move 3. With those movements, we can hit them wherever they go, unless they load back on their boat (which they will probably do after seeing so many units nearby ).

	02-02-2004 09:49									#35
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Save posted for E_T:

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Ma...lians0410AD.SAV

	02-02-2004 11:56									#36
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Trip: We won't have a rock solid case for peace until that Galley AND the Spearmen are gone. Maybe a consultation with mongoose is in order to just make sure. We have dicked around for long enough...

	02-02-2004 12:12									#37
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Why has the turn not been played?

	02-02-2004 15:41									#38
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Why has the turn not been played?

1. We just finished the Forbidden Palace and given the impact of that event, it's not a bad idea to make sure all of our t's are crossed and all of our i's are dotted before rushing forward.

2. The GCA situation has gotten, frankly, atrocious. A campaign to make our point to mongoose201 regarding that chasing around single phantom units after GCA already should have ended the war by Mongoose201's own ruling before is not acceptable.

3. For god's sakes, BigFree, it's Super Bowl Sunday! So, first off, no-one other than perhaps the German team is even going to care if the save wasn't played today.

4. It being Super Bown Sunday, very few of our own people were around and the few that stuck their logins "online" (such as myself) weren't actually around enough to run the save this evening. Hell, even Master Zen, who isn't even American, wasn't entirely available today. I also got a PM from E_T saying that he wasn't forwarded a copy of the save by miccofl, and frankly this is a turn upon which the MoI NEEDS to see the save before we play it.

5. Most importantly of all, we don't have to. Not every turn needs to be played within 6 hours of it coming in or 12 or even 24. Some turns, such as the turn upon which our Forbidden Palace is completed (nevermind everything else going on and that it's Super Bowl Sunday), probably SHOULD be handled with care rather than rushed out the door as quickly as possible. Under the old clock system, the WHOLE REASON we would move most turns quickly was to store up hours of clock for use on turns like this.

So your concern is noted, but frankly we're going to try to handle this responsibly.

	02-02-2004 19:46									#39
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We can rush the Galley that is being built in Lakeveiw for 68 Gold.

E_T

	02-02-2004 19:59									#40
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Can someone post a picture of our empire?

Furthermore, note that the Spearman nor the Galley are in our (cultural) territory. So if GCA goes whining about being 'capable of warfare' we could whine back at them that they are not, since they cannot attack any units of ours, can't pillage and are not within our borders.

Come to think of it, maybe we should resolve the GCA issue first before moving units adjacent to the Spearman and thus giving them a fighting excuse.

	02-02-2004 22:28									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos So your concern is noted, but frankly we're going to try to handle this responsibly.

Excuses are...., well, you know what they are like!

I guess finishing the FP was a complete surprise then?
I guess a Consuls post in the appropriate thread explaining why they are not playing the save was not warranted.
I guess Trip's post specifically saying the turn would be played at around 3 PM EST should not have been read as the truth.
I guess that one of the Consuls should not have posted at the UN about our delay of over 24 hours.
I guess it's more responsible to make excuses after the fact than to address them before the delay.

[sarchasm]
But, if, like I said, you were NOT aware the FP was to be finished this turn, then you had no idea how important this turn was.
[/sarchasm]

	03-02-2004 00:52									#42
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There were also not complete MOI orders at the time the turn was going to be played.

Also, I feel we should hold onto the save as long as is necessary to get contact with Mongoose and get this peace situation sorted out ASAP. War is costing us 20 GPT now and as Arne said, this is getting ridiculous.

	03-02-2004 01:42									#43
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Excuses are...., well, you know what they are like! I guess finishing the FP was a complete surprise then?

no

quote: I guess a Consuls post in the appropriate thread explaining why they are not playing the save was not warranted. I guess Trip's post specifically saying the turn would be played at around 3 PM EST should not have been read as the truth. I guess that one of the Consuls should not have posted at the UN about our delay of over 24 hours. I guess it's more responsible to make excuses after the fact than to address them before the delay. [sarchasm] But, if, like I said, you were NOT aware the FP was to be finished this turn, then you had no idea how important this turn was. [/sarchasm]

I have been fully aware of the time of completion for the last several turns
Turn 151 thread: Karina - Building Forbiddden Palace (turn 22 of 30?? - scheduale is changing).
Turn 152 thread: Karina - Building Forbiddden Palace (turn 23 of 27 schedualed).
Turn 153 thread: nothing posted by me, sorry
Turn 154 thread: nothing again
Turn 155 thread: nothing again
Turn 156 thread: Karina - Building Forbiddden Palace (turn 27 of 27 schedualed). last turn for theFP build.
Turn 157 thread: some posts about the FP being built and such, before the save had even arrived.

E_T

	03-02-2004 06:08									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Trip War is costing us 20 GPT now and as Arne said, this is getting ridiculous.

It's been ridiculous for quite some time now IMO.

When did we post a poll that says we would decide to only now hold the save until we get action on this issue?

This should not be just hung on the members of the team as a Consular decision that happened behind closed doors. If Apolyton is going to "hold" the turn, then it should be a team decision to do so.

	03-02-2004 07:02									#45
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Trip: We won't have a rock solid case for peace until that Galley AND the Spearmen are gone. Maybe a consultation with mongoose is in order to just make sure. We have dicked around for long enough...

Rushing the Galley in Lakeview gets it in range to attack the GCA Galley in 5 turns.

Whereas the Seeker can get it in 6 turns.

So a better question is whether one turn is worth 68 gold?

	03-02-2004 07:09									#46
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Will only one Galley suffice? Or would two Galley's on the job be more prudent at this juncture?

	03-02-2004 07:13									#47
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Will only one Galley suffice? Or would two Galley's on the job be more prudent at this juncture?

Their Galley only has 1 HP left. The odds of it killing ours is only 15%.

	03-02-2004 07:15									#48
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A Barb Galley could attack it and promote before then as well. Is it worth knowing that the job will be done?

	03-02-2004 07:30									#49
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Going to start the turn in 10 minutes.

	03-02-2004 07:30									#50
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree A Barb Galley could attack it and promote before then as well. Is it worth knowing that the job will be done?

We have another Galley 2 turns behind the Seeker.

	03-02-2004 07:32									#51
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree When did we post a poll that says we would decide to only now hold the save until we get action on this issue? This should not be just hung on the members of the team as a Consular decision that happened behind closed doors. If Apolyton is going to "hold" the turn, then it should be a team decision to do so.

BF, why so much complaining over a held turn? We have already explained the reasons why it was held, there is no need to run a poll about it. Furthermore, explain to me why you would prefer forcing the consuls to play the turn in a mediocre manner without a thorough review by the MoI, instead of waiting until we can play it in the most efficient manner?

	03-02-2004 09:24									#52
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Beginning of the Turn

CFC sends 35 gold and World Map accepted (accepted)
Note: Donovan Zoi sent me a PM saying that the CFC player forgot to send 40g instead of 35 so we will receive 45 this coming turn as compensation.

Research on Invention completed - default next tech begun (Gunpowder)

Forbidden Palace completed in Karina

Workers

Yo & Anarchy - roaded
rush & rah - moved 9 and Irrigate
Screech & Sanchez - moved 4 and Irrigate
Empress - moved 9-9-8
GP - roaded
Go3 - Roaded
Monkee & CalcII - roaded
Frodo & OOD - Irrigated
LAN Party (LAN, Dan & Gits) - Roaded
Curly - moved 8-8-8
TempA - added to Poly

Settlers

PolyA - moved 2-1-1
MingA - moved 2-2-2
Settler from HoD (HoD A) - moved 2-2-2
Settler from Poly (Poly B) - moved 1-1-1

City Builds

HoD - starts building Library
Karina - starts building Settler (placeholder)

WF

Banana - changed WF to 2-3-4-5-13-14
Tripoli - changed WF to 2-6-9-17-18
Poly - changed WF to 5-8-13-14-16 (working game)
Ming - changed 3-6-10-12-15 (grows next turn - gets the 10 shields)
Chiquita - changed WF to 1-5-6-9
AreaX - changed WF to 1-2-8
Equil - changed WF to 4-5
Hisp - changed WF to 1-2-3-4-12-20
Lux - changed WF to 1-2-3-11
HoD - made sure WF is 3-4-10-11
Karina - changed WF to 3-4-11-13-17 & 1 Scientist

West

MI Vlad moved 8, attacking the barb camp; wins with no HP lost
NM NuclearMercenary moved 7-4-8, attacking 1/2 barb Horse; wins with 1 HP lost
MI MJW moved 6-2: in case GCA kills not_panag we can take out the Spear the following turn
Warrior not_panag fortifies
3 Catapults in Equilibrium move 6-6-2; they can shell the GCA Spear if it moves 4 or 8

Core

5 Knights (E_T, Bingo, HTower, Vondrack, Donegeal) moved to the mountain 9 of the GCA Spear
NM NotYouEither fortified
NM Arnelos fortified
Knight Togas moved 9, finds barb Warriors at 8 and 9; heading for barb camp
Horse Trip's Guard III moved to Mingapulco, renamed to "Trip's Consulate Guard" and upgraded to Knight for 80 gold.
NM Clinton Portis moved 3-3-3; protecting the SE in case Ghengis has to kill a barb off our road network

Center and South

MI Alva moved 8; in case GCA Spear moves 3 next turn
Knight Ennet moved to the same tile as Alva (GCA Spear 3-3)
BigKnight moved to Elucidium 6-6-9 and forted; warding off barbs near our Workers

Galleys

Seeker moved 4-1 and forted
Hunter moved 1-2 and forted

End of Turn Stuff

Sent Invention to CGN "Accepted"
Sent WM to CFC "Accepted"

Slider set to 90% science, 0% luxury, switched from Gunpowder to Education: 6 turns to completion at -96 GPT
Treasury at 725 gold

Barbs near Tripoli
Strong to GCA
Strong to CFC
Weak to GWT
Weak to CGN

GNP 260
MFG 102
Prod 355

Last edited by Trip on 03-02-2004 at 10:01

	03-02-2004 09:29									#53
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree A Barb Galley could attack it and promote before then as well. Is it worth knowing that the job will be done?

Barb galley from where?

	03-02-2004 09:42									#54
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Screenshots:

	03-02-2004 11:15									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Their Galley only has 1 HP left. The odds of it killing ours is only 15%.

Err no. You do remember this is GCA we're playing against right? The odds of it killing our galley are 100%.

	03-02-2004 11:21									#56
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit Err no. You do remember this is GCA we're playing against right? The odds of it killing our galley are 100%.

Which is why we attack them.

	03-02-2004 12:01									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen BF, why so much complaining over a held turn? We have already explained the reasons why it was held, there is no need to run a poll about it. Furthermore, explain to me why you would prefer forcing the consuls to play the turn in a mediocre manner without a thorough review by the MoI, instead of waiting until we can play it in the most efficient manner?

The point I'm making is that the Consuls did not discuss this "holding" of the save. In fact, Trip posted that he would play the save yesterday and it did not happen. If the Consuls had discussed holding it and then decided that holding it would be best then that would be marginally ok; and just barely because all of the reasons that existed to hold the turn this time existed on the turn before and the one before that and so on back to 10 turns ago! I would rather the Consuls discussed it then asked the team if they should hold the save. But I don't think that is what happened. I think the turn did not get played and excuses were made up after the fact simply because Trip indicated he would play it.

There are many good reasons to hold the turn. Some of which Arnelos explained. But, again, that explanation came only after the fact and not beforehand. The question about whether to poll or not is a valid one; and I'm not talking about holding a poll for the save as we recieve it, but a poll for a furutre turn so that proper discussioin can take place among the team members. We just played the turn and sent it on even though we still have no resolution with GCA in regards to peace even though Arnelos said that was one of the reasons to hold it!

I just want clear answers as to what is going on and not 'fly by the seat of your pants' answers to why the Consuls are taking certain actions.

If the Consuls need info from the MoI on every single turn in order to play it then the MoI position is made to be more important than the Consuls position and we should have 3 MoI's instead of 3 Consuls. The Consuls are elected to be able to play the turn in an effective and professional manner. I have every confidence that the 3 current Consuls have the Civ skills to play the turn in a manner that would make us all proud each and every time. But why do they hessitate? Do they need the MoI's input for every single turn? The MoI should have a generalized plan that the Consuls can follow. I'm pretty sure he does. What's being done to ensure that the Consuls have this information from the MoI in a timely manner?

The Consuls can do what they want. I just want them to explain, ahead of time, what the plan of action will be. Give the team a chance to comment on such plans.



Arnelos: Barb Galleys can appear next to Barb camps; those camps can appear at any time along the fogged areas of the lake.

	03-02-2004 12:09									#58
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Again, the save was not played because MOI orders were not done yet. In fact, they weren't done until partway after I was playing the save tonight.

The nature of what E_T has set up is that everything is lined up quite nicely and very efficiently. Changing things all the time would render all of his work null and void. That having been said, I'm hoping that orders can be posted by the time the turn arrives in the future.

	03-02-2004 12:13									#59
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BF, once again, this was the turn we got our FP built, as such, corruption changes must be analized in detail so that we can max out our production. If we don't get the MoI to review these changes, what good is having a MoI in the first place if we can't get his input in such a vital turn as this? Just because any of us three consuls are free to make decisions and play the turn is no excuse not to seek input from the equally-important ministers or the team. You can also rest assured that we well informed of the MoI's plans in detail, but like I said, this was not your ordinary turn.

-MZ

	03-02-2004 12:20									#60
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Trip sort of addressed my concerns/points and MZ ran right around them Thanks for trying anyways.