26-01-2004 13:06									#1
	Turn 157, 410 AD Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

REMEMBER TO SEND INVENTION TO CGN ACCEPTED THIS TURN!

To be edited by the Consuls and Ministers.

Status:
- Republic
- Researching Education (? turns)
- 772 (812) gold cash, +80 (120) gpt. (est)
- Slider at 9/0/1 tax/sci/lux

Urgent questions & tasks:
MoW - Work on and complete a long-term defense plan
MoW/MoI- Build Queues?
MoI - REX, preparing for palace jump
MoI - wonder builds?
FAM - CFC tech sharing deal: amount of money
FAM - Peace with GCA
Consulate and Team - Work on and complete a new strategic plan

Unit movement & actions

Unit Roster

To be edited by MoW

Economy:
HoD, start building Lib
Karina - start building settler (placeholder)
To be edited by MoI

WF:
Poly - change WF to 5-8-13-14-16 (working game).
Ming - 3-6-10-12-15 (grows next turn - gets the 10 sheilds).
Chiquita - Change WF to 1-5-6-9.
Banana - change WF to 2-3-4-5-13-14
AreaX - change WF to 1-2-8.
Tripoli - change WF to 2-6-9-17-18.
Equil - change WF to 4-5.
Hisp - change WF to 1-2-3-4-12-20.
Karina - 3-4-11-13-17 & 1 Scientist.
Lux - change WF to 1-2-3-11.
HoD - make sure WF is 3-4-10-11.

To be edited by MoI

Workers:
Yo & Anarchy - road
rush & rah - move 9 and Irrigate
Screech & Sanchez - move 4 and Irrigate
Empress - move 9-9-8
GP - road
Go3 - Road
Monkee & CalcII - road
Frodo & OOD - Irrigate
LAN Party (LAN, Dan & Gits) - Road
Curly - move 8-8-8
TempA - add to Poly
To be edited by MoI

Settlers: see General Overall City Placement Plan #1 for locations
PolyA - move 2-1-1
MingA - move 2-2-2.
Settler from HoD (HoDA) - move 2-2-2
Settler from Poly (PolyB) - move 1-1-1



Diplomacy:
GCA: (Mostly) Phony War (War in game)
CFC: Alliance, NAP (Peace in game)
CGN: Peace, Tech Embargo against GWT (Peace in game)
GWT: Cold War (Peace in game)

Comment, please, many "plans" (especially those marked with '??') are just suggestions or ideas, not decisions already made.

---
Note: keypad directions used for all except in WF orders.

Discussion and basic reporting to follow. See the topped thread for comprehensive results

Last edited by E_T on 03-02-2004 at 08:31

	30-01-2004 11:33									#2
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The first turn with the FP!

I've done some testing with my updated sim.

At 10/0/0 (tax/sci/lux) we should be getting around 100 GPT (140 if you count CFC's gold). That's almost as high as CGN at max tax (~120 IIRC). Unfortunately, we have to run 10% luxuries, which costs us 20 GPT.

Of course... we could always use a specialist in Karina now that the FP is done... and build a Temple/Worker/Settler to squeeze it out. That one pop point would REALLY be costing us 20 GPT...

	30-01-2004 11:47									#3
	Support Apolyton

Also, we begin Education this turn.

Using my sim results, I've come up with how we can start researching Education... (assuming 0% luxuries)

For this testing I will add in CFC's 40 GPT boost as well.

During the research time we will be completing 2 Libraries (in Ming and Inc). I can't really model this without a completed updated sim (which I hope to make soon).

code:
% Res	Turns	GPT	Total gold

40	14	+58	812
50	10	+27	270
60	9	+10	90
70	8	-11	-88
80	7	-28	-196
90	6	-51	-306

	31-01-2004 01:20									#4
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I'd be in favor of researching as close to the break-even rate as possible (IOW, either 60% or 70% sci).

to hiring clown(s) in Karina. It isn't worth a few extra spt in one city to sacrifice 20 gpt. We could eventually solve this by building a temple, I'd imagine... as I understand it, Karina's build queue (in the turn-156 turnthread) is blank right now. Could we slot a temple in there?

	31-01-2004 01:49									#5
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I was thinking about having Karina do 1 of 2 things: Settler, then it has to build back up while it's building whatever happiness build it need to OR Wonder prebuild (or some other Improvement). But this is still very much up in the air.

E_T

	31-01-2004 01:58									#6
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

There is again, the problem of Mingapulco and Apolyton. Like Karina, they cannot maintain size 6 without a Temple or specialist. That would have ramifications on the REX. What do we do about this?

	31-01-2004 02:31									#7
	Suffering from ads?

kill that galley and get peace.

E_T

	31-01-2004 02:32									#8
	Support Apolyton

I won't have any orders up until tomorrow morning..

E_T

	31-01-2004 02:36									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

there is no way to get peace from CGA without killing that galley, so that must be done ASAP. The unit rush will cost some gold, but sooner we kill it, sooner we get get forced peace and lower our lux rate.

	01-02-2004 10:41									#10
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Turn is here.

Things of note:

FP completed and Invention finished researching. At 10% luxuries our GPT is 70. At 0% lux we get 90 GPT. We can switch Karina to 1 specialist and able to run at 0% lux for at least 2 turns.

GCA has landed a 5/5 Spear on the mountain to the SE of Equilibrium and SW of Chiquita. We can get 5 Knights and 1 MI adjacent to it this turn ready to attack it the next. Also, we should move MI Alva and Knight Ennet to 8 of Alva's current position (in case GCA moves its Spear 2 after seeing our 6 units heading for them ).

GCA 1/3 Galley is still there. Rushing a Galley in Equilibrium would cost us 112 gold. Otherwise, it will be 6 turns before we can get another Galley into the lake to kill it.

We lost an MI to a barb Horse over by the silk colony. We can kill the camp with an MI and the 1/2 Horse with NM NuclearMercenary.

Last edited by Trip on 01-02-2004 at 10:57

	01-02-2004 10:42									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Chiquita WF 1-2-6-10 is more efficient (2 SPT, 11 GPT), than WF 1-5-6-10 (2 SPT, 10 GPT).

This way Chiquita WF2 can be irrigated this turn and WF5 can be mined for extra shields.

Also, Equilibrium WF3 (the mountain) doesn't provide any extra shields, so we should probably have it working the 2 grass tiles nearby until the mine is done.

Last edited by Trip on 01-02-2004 at 10:55

	01-02-2004 11:05									#12
	Re: Turn 157, 410 AD Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen MingA - move 2-2-2.

You sure you want the Settler off of the road, just in case something improbable happens?

	01-02-2004 12:07									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

for a clearer pic:

	01-02-2004 13:10									#14
	Inflate your Upload Space

Do note that they're trying to get us to kill them so that we start over the time period with no conflict .... I imagine the last time they killed our galley was, what?, 5 turns or so ago?

Every time something gets killed or attacked the peace clock resets. I know we want to kill them badly, and we probably have no choice with one of their spears in our territory. We just need to recognize what's going on and that we're, once again, losing ground here.

--Togas

	01-02-2004 13:46									#15
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

OTOH, they will not be forced to declare peace if they have a unit in position that is capable of warfare. Having a Spear on land is excatly that. It needs to be killed and it needs it ASAP. Same with the Galley. My bet is that the spear will be gone next turn. It will be loaded back on the Galley and sailed away to points unknown. In a couple of turns, the spear and galley will re-emerge (probably in CFC land) and that bastard Lucky will again argue that he has a military presence and should not be made to declare peace.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that we probable should rush that galley just so we can get this over with.

	01-02-2004 16:53									#16
	Tired of ads?

Thus why I argued that we should just appeal to Mongooses common sense & fair play that the war is over.

Raise hell over this in the UN.

GCA will abuse every rule put in place.

	01-02-2004 17:12									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Thus why I argued that we should just appeal to Mongooses common sense & fair play that the war is over. Raise hell over this in the UN. GCA will abuse every rule put in place.

I'm in agreement with H_E on this one. In fact, I already told Master Zen in chat that what we should really do is just spam Mongoose's e-mail box and PM boxes, bug him on MSN, etc.

Seriously, by Mongoose's own ruling, GCA should have given us peace after the first 10-turn lul in hostilities.

I'll go fire off some e-mails and PMs to mongoose later today (need to head out right now).

	01-02-2004 17:41									#18
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Trip Chiquita WF 1-2-6-10 is more efficient (2 SPT, 11 GPT), than WF 1-5-6-10 (2 SPT, 10 GPT).

and does it have the food balance that I want?? No, but I'll look at it. The problem is that I'm using a Sim that I need to update the Bonus grassland tiles. I need to get the actual save.

quote: This way Chiquita WF2 can be irrigated this turn and WF5 can be mined for extra shields.

And if I Mine WF2 and Irrigate WF5, I still get the same amount of Sheild balance (when working both tiles). BUT, with your configuration, when we have the GA, we will have a total (for those 2 tiles) of 3 SPT. Whereas, my way, we get 4 SPT. WF2 is to be Irrigated.

quote: Also, Equilibrium WF3 (the mountain) doesn't provide any extra shields, so we should probably have it working the 2 grass tiles nearby until the mine is done.

1) With the city being abandond soon, why does it need a food surpluss??
2) When the mine is built, the extra sheilds get added into the build as if it was there the turn before (if that tile is being worked). I WILL look at when that Mine is supposed to be done and change the WF to it before hand. But until then, I'll likely have it do all coastal for Max trade.

MoI E_T

	01-02-2004 18:45									#19
	Increase Your PM Length

Hmmm, an elite Spearman. Maybe they are wanting to generate a GL??

* E_T has visions of them getting a GL and not being able to use it for anything....

Oh, that would really be a good one to have against them....

E_T

	01-02-2004 18:46									#20
	Re: Re: Turn 157, 410 AD Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Trip You sure you want the Settler off of the road, just in case something improbable happens?

That order wasn't a typo.

E_T

	01-02-2004 18:59									#21
	Got spare money?

Can someone post the save??

E_T

	02-02-2004 00:33									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by E_T and does it have the food balance that I want?? No, but I'll look at it. The problem is that I'm using a Sim that I need to update the Bonus grassland tiles. I need to get the actual save.

If WF2 is irrigated then they'll have identical FPT and SPT with 1 extra GPT.

quote: And if I Mine WF2 and Irrigate WF5, I still get the same amount of Sheild balance (when working both tiles). BUT, with your configuration, when we have the GA, we will have a total (for those 2 tiles) of 3 SPT. Whereas, my way, we get 4 SPT. WF2 is to be Irrigated.

WF2 is to be irrigated or mined?

We can't go and irrigate every single tile in the neighborhood, we'll need tiles for shields eventually. For now though, irrigating WF5 is fine, we just shouldn't take it overboard.

quote: 1) With the city being abandond soon, why does it need a food surpluss??

Why not?

quote: 2) When the mine is built, the extra sheilds get added into the build as if it was there the turn before (if that tile is being worked). I WILL look at when that Mine is supposed to be done and change the WF to it before hand. But until then, I'll likely have it do all coastal for Max trade.

Mine is done in 3 turns, IIRC. But doing 2 coastal tiles would be good for now.

	02-02-2004 00:34									#23
	Re: Re: Re: Turn 157, 410 AD Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by E_T That order wasn't a typo.

Okay then, what's the advantage of having a Settler en route to its site off a road when it could be on one?

	02-02-2004 00:40									#24
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

What are we doing with Karina?

Last edited by E_T on 02-02-2004 at 02:21

	02-02-2004 02:10									#25
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Turn 157, 410 AD Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Trip Okay then, what's the advantage of having a Settler en route to its site off a road when it could be on one?

Because, it get to it's sight next turn anyways and that is the hill that is 2 from where it will be at. Same number of turns to get there, same number of turns to when the city is built, no matter if you move on the roads or this route. The main thing that is different is THAT it's a SIMPLER route, is all.

If you want, I can lead the settler on a merry chase and still get there at the same time, but then, there is always the fact that someone might mess up, if I had done that. So, simpler is better, if there is NO difference in time involved.

Move the damn unit like I've order.

MoI E_T

	02-02-2004 02:13									#26
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Turn 157, 410 AD Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by E_T Move the damn unit like I've order.

Nah, I think I'll do it my way.

I'll be back at 9pm EST in order to play.

	02-02-2004 02:23									#27
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Trip What are we doing with Karina?

Settler OR Economy builds OR Wonder. There are so many possibilities....

I'm thinking a Temple, atleast that way, it can negate the need for the lux slider via the fastest method.

14 SPT is simply something that you don't throw away because you want to change a pop to a specialist and move the slider. Especially when all of your other cities don't get over 10 and 11 SPT (after waste).

MoI E_T

	02-02-2004 02:25									#28
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

So you think 4 more SPT in Karina is worth 20 GPT from the rest of our empire?

	02-02-2004 02:40									#29
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Turn 157, 410 AD Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by E_T Move the damn unit like I've order. MoI E_T

..

quote: Originally posted by Trip Nah, I think I'll do it my way.

Ok, time out.

This is just absolutely ludicrious. An argument over two unit moves which make absolutely NO difference if it stays on the road or out of it since it will reach the city site on the same turn regardless. And what is it turning into? This daily pissing match between E_T and Trip which has already made itself manifest more than once in the chat.

I don't see how this confrontational attitude between you two is doing anything other than damage the extremely vital relationship between the Consuls and the MoI, frankly, I don't know the reasons you two seem to despise each other and try to argue out even the most utterly mindless differences in orders (case in point here) and then continue on defying each other on what is to be done.

Now I have the utmost respect for both Trip and E_T and each of them has every right to question the other's orders (and in fact, I would encourage anyone to do so) but this attitude is nonsense and it better stop NOW for the sake of team cohesion..

Let's get back to business, let's grow the f*ck up, and realise that like it or not, we're in this for the long haul, and we're in this TOGETHER. Why the talents of two such gifted Civ3-playing individuals must be wasted on moronic arguments like this is just ridiculuous. Stop the pissing match please, and let's win this game.

-MZ

	02-02-2004 03:18									#30
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

MZ

Let's rush the Galley.

I think 20 gpt empire wide is better than 14 spt versus (would be 10 spt in Karina with specialist.)