29-01-2004 02:00									#31
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quote: Man, sheesh, you are a piece of work! The citizentry is not the "subordinates" of the president, and neither is Congress.

Did I say either were?

quote: And once you've been shown to have been lying, you can never get the trust back again.

Exactly. So show me how Bush lied. The evidence is inconclusive.

	29-01-2004 02:01									#32
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rah, if someone lied repeatedly to you about other things, then misled you about something else but said he was trying to tell you in good faith, would you believe him? Bush has been prooven to be a liar about many things. Why should we believe him when he says he was mislead?

As for what he lied about : tax cuts, faith based initiatives, the supposed damage to the White House by the Clinton staff, Harken energy, no child left behind, the state of the military under Clinton, the anti-terrorism policy given to them by Clinton, missile defense, ANWAR, the cost of Iraq, his record as Tex gov, his military record, etc. After all these lies (only some of which were campaign lies--which shouldn't let him off the hook), at what point should I stop giving him the benefit of the doubt?

Furthermore, if he mislead the nation in good faith, why has he not sacked those that gave him the false info?

	29-01-2004 02:03									#33
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara rah, if someone lied repeatedly to you about other things, then misled you about something else but said he was trying to tell you in good faith, would you believe him? Bush has been prooven to be a liar about many things. Why should we believe him when he says he was mislead? As for what he lied about : tax cuts, faith based initiatives, the supposed damage to the White House by the Clinton staff, Harken energy, no child left behind, the state of the military under Clinton, the anti-terrorism policy given to them by Clinton, missile defense, ANWAR, the cost of Iraq, his record as Tex gov, his military record, etc. After all these lies (only some of which were campaign lies--which shouldn't let him off the hook), at what point should I stop giving him the benefit of the doubt? Furthermore, if he mislead the nation in good faith, why has he not sacked those that gave him the false info?

My sentiments exactly.

	29-01-2004 02:05									#34
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Che:

quote: tax cuts, faith based initiatives, the supposed damage to the White House by the Clinton staff, Harken energy, no child left behind, the state of the military under Clinton, the anti-terrorism policy given to them by Clinton, missile defense, ANWAR, the cost of Iraq, his record as Tex gov, his military record,

Just one will suffice. Pick the one you feel has the best evidence.

	29-01-2004 02:09									#35
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Then It's your opinion he lied about it. See, wasn't that simple. I don't care what is proven prior, you don't have proof this is a lie, It's your opinion. You're probably right, but it's still JUST AN OPINION>

I just find it funny that GEPEP bases everything he says on his fact that BUSH LIED, when it's just his opinion.

I see the same trait in bigots.

	29-01-2004 02:10									#36
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Rah, surely you're not naive enough to not realize that politicians will put any kind of imagineable spin on whatever issues they make decisions on??

	29-01-2004 02:12									#37
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NO, He probably did lie. or spin. BUT I DON"T KNOW FOR SURE AND EITHER DO THEY. OPINION IS NOT FACT, that's the only point i'm trying to make.

	29-01-2004 02:14									#38
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Okay, that's a valid point.

	29-01-2004 02:16									#39
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quote: Originally posted by rah NO, He probably did lie. or spin. BUT I DON"T KNOW FOR SURE AND EITHER DO THEY. OPINION IS NOT FACT, that's the only point i'm trying to make.

Well, I don't think any of us can argue with your point that opinion is not a fact -- of course it's not.

	29-01-2004 02:17									#40
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quote: Originally posted by rah Then It's your opinion he lied about it. See, wasn't that simple. I don't care what is proven prior, you don't have proof this is a lie, It's your opinion. You're probably right, but it's still JUST AN OPINION> I just find it funny that GEPEP bases everything he says on his fact that BUSH LIED, when it's just his opinion. I see the same trait in bigots.

Hey, I have PEP! now, yeah!

As I told Ned, go look at oedo's post in the otherr Kay thread, and read what the administration said, which was : we KNOW saddam has WMD's, which is a lie (they could not have known, 1, and 2, the evidence shows this to have been false). then look at MtG statement: the president is responsible for his subordinates.

So, to repeat: the admin. stated it KNEW saddam had WMD's. This was false. But those statemenst were part of a deliberate campaign to make the American people think there was a dramatic threat from Iraq as of Maxrh 2003 than had to be taken out.

	29-01-2004 02:19									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Che: Just one will suffice. Pick the one you feel has the best evidence.

How about this. Go pick up Paul Krugman's book The Great Unraveling. Mr. Krugman definately has an axe to grind, but he is a tranied economist and easy to read and understand. He details the Prez's lies (both before and after his selection) about the details of his tax cut schemes. You might want to check out Molly Ivans if you want more info on Bush's record in Texas, and what he said about it during his campaign. In some cases, the Texas legislature passed laws over Bush's veto, and he later took credit for the laws. Ivans also has an extremely anti-Bush bent, but let's face it. There are no neutral books on Bush. Either you fawn over him or you froth at the mouth at the thought of him.

edit: added more hyperbole.

	29-01-2004 02:23									#42
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If the president believed someone that told him that they were sure they had wmd and the President used it in a speech, he is just wrong and did not lie. The outcome might be the same and it's tragic, but you have no PROOF that he LIED. And you haven't presented any absolute proof, just some possible evidence.

AGAIN, it's just your opinion he lied. THAT"S THE ONLY POINT I"M TRYING TO MAKE. At least the more reasonable posters are willing to admit that. And as expected, you're not. AND again, it is my opinion that something sounds fishy also.

	29-01-2004 02:35									#43
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Molly Ives, What a hoot. I read her stuff for the humor. Needless to say, we don't share many opinions.
If she didn't have such an anti-bush bias, more people would take her seriously. Her hatred for bush is so obvious, she loses credibility with anybody that doesn't share her hatred. Which is a shame because sometimes she has some real good things to say. And if she was a little bit more subtle with her hatred, she could probably get more people to agree with her and dislike bush also. Her hatred makes her ineffective at accomplishing what would make her most happy. People that already hate bush don't need her column to continue to believe that way.

I think GEPAP is the same. He has some good things to say every now and then but his hatred is so obvious and powerful that he comes off worse then bigots. He will never convince anybody. I'm usually willing to listen and have been known to change my mind occasionaly. Che or MrFun have the ability and the skill to do that. GEPAP does not. If anything, his hatred makes me want to stick to my guns because to agree with him is to share the hatred.

You never win any arguements by calling your oponent an idiot. It's best that they don't figure it out for a few days.

	29-01-2004 02:36									#44
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quote: edit: added more hyperbole.

Awesome "edit" line, Che.

As for the rest, I have little doubt that Bush and those in the administration who were pro-war spun information to support their pro-war bias. There were plenty of powerful people who wanted to nail Saddam before 9/11, and saw the opportunity to do what they thought needed doing.

So, to this I say "duh."

-Arrian

	29-01-2004 02:39									#45
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quote: Originally posted by rah AGAIN, it's just your opinion he lied. THAT"S THE ONLY POINT I"M TRYING TO MAKE. At least the more reasonable posters are willing to admit that. And as expected, you're not. AND again, it is my opinion that something sounds fishy also.

BUt its based ona false premise: that becuase people in the admin. were using intelliegence being given to them, if they said something based on it, they could not have lied (you are implying no deliberate falsehood was perpetrated). BUT the fact is that members of the admin. knew that the intelliegence they were getting was not unanimous, that disagreements existed, and that fundamentally they could never say they KNEW as FACT iraq had WMD's, because given their position, they had no real PROOF.

So when they said "we know" or "we have proof", they were deliberately stating things they knew not to be possible. That is a lie.

	29-01-2004 02:41									#46
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quote: Originally posted by rah I think GEPAP is the same. He has some good things to say every now and then but his hatred is so obvious and powerful that he comes off worse then bigots. He will never convince anybody. I'm usually willing to listen and have been known to change my mind occasionaly. Che or MrFun have the ability and the skill to do that. GEPAP does not. If anything, his hatred makes me want to stick to my guns because to agree with him is to share the hatred. You never win any arguements by calling your oponent an idiot. It's best that they don't figure it out for a few days.

Basically, you base your oposition ot my arguements not on their logical worth, but on your perception of mmy bias (your own bias)..yup, certainly you are open to debate.

Do I really need to add about the logical problems with thinking that being in agreement with somones logical point is to someone then share their world-view? I agree with the Bush program to spend more money to train ex-convicts: not becuase I agree with his world view, but becuase the proposal, on its own, is valid.

	29-01-2004 02:45									#47
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Che:

quote: Awesome "edit" line, Che.

Good to see you can step outside and laugh at yourself once in awhile.

	29-01-2004 02:46									#48
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quote: Originally posted by rah I'm usually willing to listen and have been known to change my mind occasionaly. Che or MrFun have the ability and the skill to do that.

Wow -- I am honored.

	29-01-2004 02:53									#49
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Just a different slant.

I'm dating a girl.
My twin brother and I share a lot of friends. 6 of them tell him that they have proof that my girlfriend cheated on me. He talks to 4 others and they tell him the 6 others are crazy. He decides to believe the 6 instead of the four.
He tells me that there's proof my girlfriend cheated on me. My other brother tells me there's no proof. I believe my twin.
I break up with my girlfriend and I tell her it's because there's proof that she cheated on me.
Did I lie to her? Or am I just an Ass?

Whether I personally find any proof later is immaterial to the original question. Did I lie to her?

If I truely believed there was proof, it was not a lie.

Unless you can 100% know what was in my mind when I said it, you can't be sure whether it's a lie or not. You can have opinions, but you don't know for sure.

If you pull 100 different INTEL people, you will get many many different opinions, theories, and offers of proof. Thats how intel works. It's possible to be wrong.

	29-01-2004 02:55									#50
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No one is demanding that a president has to be perfect and flawless, Rah.

	29-01-2004 03:01									#51
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I do.

	29-01-2004 03:01									#52
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I know, and Bush doesn't qualify.

But my whole and ONLY point, is that we can't know absolutely if Bush actually lied. High probablility that there was some type of spin going on, but no proof has been offered. It's just a person's opinion that he lied. NOT YET FACT.

	29-01-2004 03:01									#53
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It's quite simple - either the government are a load of idiots or they lied.

	29-01-2004 03:03									#54
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I do.

Sorry to have underestimated your high standards, oh-great-one.

	29-01-2004 03:04									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Che: Good to see you can step outside and laugh at yourself once in awhile.

Yeah, well, it's nice to be part of the crowd every once in a while.

	29-01-2004 03:04									#56
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quote: Originally posted by rah I know, and Bush doesn't qualify. But my whole and ONLY point, is that we can't know absolutely if Bush actually lied. High probablility that there was some type of spin going on, but no proof has been offered. It's just a person's opinion that he lied. NOT YET FACT.

Maybe some of base our opinions on a strong gut feeling, based on precedents of other politicians who back-pedal, spin, deceive, and misinform throughout their service in office in the past.

	29-01-2004 03:06									#57
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Yeah well back to Kay....

Still haven't caught the rest of teh CSPAN coverage, but it is very clear that he did not say what the media and the dems bent his words into.

At best he said it was six one way and half a dozen the other. BUT, if you're a president and you have equal evidence there is WMD threat as oppossed to not, isn't it the prudent course to play devils advocate?

I agree that you will always try to see what you want, and the Reps were given two ambiguous opinions and of course they picked the one they identified with. Do you think the Dems are not doing the exact same thing?

Che, I do think the missiles he was talking about were Bliss era, but Saddam never turned them over OR said whether they were destroyed. Kay said to Kennedy that Saddam was bieng ambiguous for two reasons.

1.) He actually needed the perception that he had WMD to keep his own populous in line. The Kurds in particular were sensative to this threat, especially since Saddam proved his resolve in using them.

2.) Saddam believed that the perception that he might have them would give him a bargaining chip amoungst other Mid East countries, as well as a deterant against full scale war against him by the west. Obviously a wrong assumption on his part.

	29-01-2004 03:07									#58
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dp

	29-01-2004 03:09									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon It's quite simple - either the government are a load of idiots or they lied.

Too simple. There is always choice c) All of the above.

	29-01-2004 03:10									#60
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quote: Originally posted by rah But my whole and ONLY point, is that we can't know absolutely if Bush actually lied. High probablility that there was some type of spin going on, but no proof has been offered. It's just a person's opinion that he lied. NOT YET FACT.

What counts as proof? A memo titled "HOw I lied about WMD's", handwriten by Bush?

As agathon said, they are either utterly incompetent, or they lied.