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Patroklos
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Back home in good ole Norfolk VA
Dec 2001
time: 05:33
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Hey,
Watched some of the hearings on CSPAN today at lunch, at least enough to see Kay smack Senators Kennedy and Clinton around like tricks on a street corner, and it proved very intresting.
Granted, I onlw say about 30 minutes of it, and I haven't read any other literature on Kay, but I was pretty sure that the media was hyping him up to be the vindicator of the Democratic Bush-lied-about-weapons-of-mass-destruction mantra.
What I saw didn't seem to be heading that way at all. Now I am not saying that Bush was right, but everyone seems to be claiming that Bush lied or at the very least manipulated the data given to him for his own ends. This is exactly what Kennedy and Clinton tried to make him say, but he literally laughed them all off and sent them on their merry way.
He said that the intelligence community was pretty much split down the middle on the issue, and that Bush would have had equal justificatied to have accepted either position (granted I know Bush said irrefutable proof but how many world leaders take the wishiwashy road after making a decision like this). He also, while bieng one of the most open and in the know critics of the intelligence failure on this one, asserted that given the evidence collected in the past decade and the intentional ambiguousness of Saddams answer to both UN and US inquiries, the intelligence community was correct to follow the line they did. He seems to be more critical of the intelligence gathering portion of the buisness rather than the analysis.
Lastly, he made it emphatically clear that while Iraq did not have any chemical, biological or nuclear weapons, he also stated emphatically that he had plenty of warheads and rockets stockpiled that had no use but to deliver those weapons.
Like I said I didn't see it all, it will be repeated tonight and hopefully I can catch the rest.
Question though? As Kay also told a red faced and stuttering Kennedy, the pocession of those warheads is a technical, literal, and illegal breach of every UN resolution passed on Iraq concerning weapons of mass destruction. Legally, they should have been declared to the UN and then destroyed and not having done so is a clear breach of UN policy.
So as a side note, what do you all think is more important? The gun or the bullets? Iraq had the gun, but no ammunition for them, which is still a breach of law but do you think this should be the case?
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Patroklos
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Back home in good ole Norfolk VA
Dec 2001
time: 05:33
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I just thought it was interesting to watch and hear Kay himself and see what he actually trys to convey as to opposed to the "cut" we get when we hear the media version.
it is nowhere near the same.
GePap,
Like I said above when people like a president make a decision they don't pussyfoot about it nore should they. "ummm, excuse me, is this thing on, ummmm, yeah, we perhaps might, maybe, ummm, have a problem ummm, in Iraq." All authority figures, Rep or Dem, American or otherwise behave this way. They throw their weight behind their decision. It is like this in all positions of authority. Have you even been in one?
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Patroklos
GePap,
Like I said above when people like a president make a decision they don't pussyfoot about it nore should they. "ummm, excuse me, is this thing on, ummmm, yeah, we perhaps might, maybe, ummm, have a problem ummm, in Iraq." All authority figures, Rep or Dem, American or otherwise behave this way. They throw their weight behind their decision. It is like this in all positions of authority. Have you even been in one? |
 God that is lame.
When someone makes a decision, they are honest with thier causes, make an honest case to the people and the congress, and then await the consequences. they do not lie and distort and use fearmongering to get what they want.
That is true weakness, not the false macho you seem so much a fan of.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Was the evidence at the time conclusive? Just because we know more now, is of little value, as hindsight is always 20/20. With inconclusive evidence, I can see why Bush would choose the route he has. |
And the point, given that you obviously missed it by a mile, is that bush should have been a man and said "hey, the evidence is not conclusive, but as leader, I chose.." Instead, his admin lied about the evidence being conclusive, so that he could avoid the consequences of taking a real principled stand.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Patroklos
I wonder the same thing Che, why didn't all those rockets (that were operational) register on the media's radarscreen. |
Then media is lazy. If no one's making an issue of something, they won't either. If viable delibery systerms were found, the Bush Administration would be making a great deal about it. Even as recently as last week Cheney was talking about having found the moble weapons labs, despite the fact that seven months ago they were proven not to be weapons labs but hydrogen manufacturing trucks for use in spotter balloons. If Cheney has to resort to lying, then one must assume that nothing more substantial has been discovered. All the Prez could say during his SotU was that Iraq had programs (which is iffy). Even the Right wing has resorted to saying the primary justification for the invasion was on humanitarian grounds. IIRC, weren't the rockets found by Blix's people before the invasion?
quote:
So what I guess I am asking is do people even care that the legal code of the UN resolutions were broken intentionally and repeatedly, or do they just care that their niave limited information based concepts of what constitutes a WMD threat are not violated. |
Well, you can't really claim to be upholding the UN when you ignore the will of the UN so flagrantly. Nor can you claim to be supportive of the UN when you don't enforce resolutions equally (such as the resolutions regarding Israel).
Do people care that Iraq was violating the cease fire? I think if you could prove it was substantial and repetitive, and not the equivalent of a parking ticket, yes, I think people would care. There is a strong effort that Iraq complied, if somewhat unwillingly, with the inspection and destruction regime, but finally grew frustrated by the inspectors continued meddling in places they didn't belong. Especially once it came to light that the CIA was using the inspectors to spy on Iraq. Iraq should have made a case before the UN to have the problem inspectors removed (though I'm certain the Clinton Administration would have blocked it).
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rah
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Apolyton Prince of Moderators, Master of Reason
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Lord of the Ferrets
Jan 1970
time: 23:33
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
when ferrets troll!
How could Bush read other minds when he is so innept at using his own?
While one instinct tells me to show why all that rah just said above is meaningless and mindless, and the other part says-why waste your time? The "why waste time" part wins! |
Because you can't. You don't have proof he lied. IT"S JUST YOUR OPINION BUT YOU STATE IT LIKE IT"S GOD GIVEN FACT> It isn't. He might have, but I'm willing to have doubt on whether the pres lied or not since unless he admits it, there is no way to prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. You have no doubt, which is laughable, like most of your arguement since most of them start with, BUSH LIED. Hell, in that other thread you linked it to ORIGINAL SIN. How pathetic is that?
That's why you will never accept proof on anything else that you might, "heaven forbid" be wrong about. You don't argue, you preach, based on things that require faith, not ultimate truth. Just like religion, not everyone has the same faith you have.
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28-01-2004 22:42
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