29-01-2004 01:29									#1
	MOO2 Speculation and Questions Put an end to popups!

Hi guys!

I just bought MOO2 from Amazon like Stormhound suggested. I just got it yesterday and I ended up playing it all night. My eyes are kind of bugged out.

Anyways, I'm kind of a MOO3 veteran, having played MOO3 for almost a year. And when I played my first game of MOO2 I was blown away.

I noticed several things right off the bat.

First, the computer AI is far more "intelligent" in keeping treaties and far more willing to accept MY deals such as tech trades and what-not.

Second, the ability to make planets from asteroid fields is awesome!

Third, being able to choose from the 5 "eliminated" races... the Elerians, Darloks, Alkari, Gnolam, and Bulrathi is nice. I get to see what their empires were like before the New Orions destroyed them prior to MOO3.

Fourth, I noticed several major differences in how the races look. The Trilarians have like 10 or more eyes and white color in MOO2, but in MOO3, they only have 2 big eyes and are greenish in color. Also, the Psilons have a diamond in their heads, and their heads weren't overgrown, as well as full locomotion instead of hovering in flying pods like in MOO3.

This truly shows the extent of the Antaran genetic modiciations to all these races. I was like WHOA! when I saw these MOO2 versions of the MOO3 races.

The last thing... I noticed that several races in MOO3 aren't in there. I noticed the Raas, Grendarl, Nommo, Cynoids, and the Evon aren't in MOO2. Also there's no Etherans at all in MOO2.

I know the Cynoids came AFTER MOO2, when the Meklar empire split as described in MOO3's history encyclopedia.

But I know the Evon, Etherans, Raas, Nommo, and Grendarl existed during MOO2. Why aren't they in the game? Is it because of the old game limitations?


Speculation and excitement aside,,,, I have several questions about MOO2.

First, I noticed some star systems with no planets. It's all asteroids and gas giants. How do I go about transforming these planets to planets that can be settled?

For example, I got the Stellar Converter, and destroyed all the planets in a solar system. Is it possible at all to get these planets back, or am I screwed without one settle-able planet to produce the "artificial planet" for the system?

Second, is there any way to get ALL the special techs in the game? I used Creativity trait so I can get all the researchable technologies. I read the PDF manual and it says I have to steal the special technologies from the Antarans. If I keep stealing technologies from the Antaran raiders, will I still get all the special technologies?

Third, I'm a little confused on the freighter issue. How do I make the freighters move food to other planets? Or is it automatic?

Last, about the Galaxy Council. I know if I get the 2/3 votes I win the game, but if the enemy gets 2/3 of the vote, can I still win the game or lose automatically?


Thanks in advance for your help and feedback. I'm gonna spend tonight playing MOO2 again. From my 1 night experience so far, it appears to be well made, and classical, much like Civ 1 and Civ 2.

	29-01-2004 02:04									#2
	Remove this text

1) Unless there is a planet in the system you can't build the artificial planet, so you are screwed.

2) Eventually, some of the specials only show up on larger antaren ships though.

3) It is automatic. Colonists take priority over food though.

4) You can refuse to accept the vote, but then the winner gets all the tech, systems, and ships of the other AI races.

	29-01-2004 02:26									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

You or any other race could capture antaran ships and thenscrap them. If you are lucky you learn a tech from the scrapping.
You also get techs from defeating the guardian at Orion.
One is always Death rays (if on PC).

Nothing I have seen speaks about all of the races in Moo3, in Moo2. So my guess is that many came into being during the design of Moo3. In any event they had a limit on the races in the game. They could have made natives represent them if they knew of them.

	29-01-2004 02:27									#4
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Oh and congrats on hangig in with Moo3 all this time. I still hope to get back to try the patch one day. I also like the massive battles.

	29-01-2004 03:20									#5
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Since you've received the answers to the game, I'll give you the answer about the story


MOO III changed the story a little, just like MOO II changed the story a little from MOO, if you remember MOO's story that is....

In short, they tried to link the games together as a form of a continuing story but, some things have been altered in the storyline in order to fit into the new game.

They did go to great lengths though to merge the two stories as best as they possibly could. The "excuse" in the MOO III story for evons and so on, is that they only came later; after a certain race (end of MOO II) became the Masters of Orion again and got destroyed/went missing.. again.

	29-01-2004 03:43									#6
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I think the less that's said about the "story" the better.

	29-01-2004 05:41									#7
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"First, I noticed some star systems with no planets. It's all asteroids and gas giants. How do I go about transforming these planets to planets that can be settled? "

nothing you can do, so you can't wipe out those damned etherians

"For example, I got the Stellar Converter, and destroyed all the planets in a solar system. Is it possible at all to get these planets back, or am I screwed without one settle-able planet to produce the "artificial planet" for the system?"

You permenantly wiped out those planets :P

"Second, is there any way to get ALL the special techs in the game? I used Creativity trait so I can get all the researchable technologies. I read the PDF manual and it says I have to steal the special technologies from the Antarans. If I keep stealing technologies from the Antaran raiders, will I still get all the special technologies?"

Absolutely, you get 4 from orion, and you can steal the other four from the antaran raiders, see other threads on this topic for how to do so if you are having some trouble with that. You can not research these, and they never miniaturize though so death rays and particle beams are worthless late game(pbws should always pierce shields, even hard shields )


"Third, I'm a little confused on the freighter issue. How do I make the freighters move food to other planets? Or is it automatic?"

Just make the freighters, they handle everything else.


"Last, about the Galaxy Council. I know if I get the 2/3 votes I win the game, but if the enemy gets 2/3 of the vote, can I still win the game or lose automatically?"

You can still win, but every empire unites under the banner of the guy who won, and he gets all their fleets and planets. He then proceeds to throw these at you. The way moo3 should work if they could make it more difficult to get elected president.

	29-01-2004 10:51									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

In star systems with more than one enemy planet you can capture one, stellar convert the other, then build an artificial planet, gift the system away, come back with your fleet and stellar convert the other planet. Then build another artificial planet.
Voilą, two large, barren, abundant rocks.
But I almost never play for maximum score so I never use this, most of the time I don't even finish the last wars when I have 'won' already.

Regarding Moo3, I'm so glad I tried the game for two days before buying it, it was so boring IMO, it was the first game in years I felt that couldn't fail, then it did . I always meant to try again with a patch, but I never got around to it in a year. (Europa Universalis II taking up all my time, etc.)

	29-01-2004 13:38									#9
	Increase Your PM Length

For the special techs - there are 8 of them.
Even the smallest of the antaran ships have xentronium, damper field, quantum detonator and particle beam. If you get these from scrapping, and THEN defeat the guardian it will yield the other 4 (black hole, death ray, spatial compressor and reflection field). This is the easiest way to have all of them.

	29-01-2004 21:50									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

As long as I get X-armor I am happy.

	30-01-2004 03:19									#11
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i believe there's a couple of techs you can't get without cheating. i forget the names, but they are the weapons from wandering creatures like the space ameoba and such. so technically, you can't get all the techs in the game honestly.

	31-01-2004 01:22									#12
	Got spare money?

Whoa, thanks so much for the feedback, guys!

I just beat MOO2 last night. I liked the movies, such as the Antaran fleets warping in, Stellar Converter destroying planets, and the victory movie of conquering / bombarding Antares... which I know from MOO3 wasn't the case. Anyone who read the MOO3 backstory / Encyclopedia will know exactly what I mean

I noticed several things I hadn't noticed earlier.

First, for some reason, after I got all the researchable techs, the Antaran invasions dropped A LOT, and in the game I just won, I never even got the Antaran "hail" saying "We shall purify the galaxy and destroy your empire" or something like that.

Then when I get all the special techs, I never see Antaran raids anymore. I've went over 100 - 150 turns without ANY raids whatsoever til I decided "bugger it, lets invade the 'fake' Antares"

So, is the chance of Antaran raids reduced to zero AFTER I get all the special technologies (from Orion and scrapped Antaran ships)?


Second, I noticed after a certain point, the AI empires stop colonizing and then even after bombarding (not destroying) Gaia Planets, they still don't colonize them. What's up with that?

Third, when I attacked the fake Antares, it has NO weapons or defenses (except the Star Fortress). A normal AI planet would have beam and missile bases, fighters, and torpedoes installed in it. Boy, the Antarans must be dumb to not do that, and they're supposed to be intensely militaristic.

Last.... I noticed the AI never converts gas giants and asteroids to artificial planets. I'm not sure if they have the Planet Construction tech or not. But they do manage to terraform most planets with the occasional non-terraformed planet. I noticed this since I've seen the AI colonize a barren or desert planet, then about 200 turns later, it still is barren or desert even though the other planets become Gaia's.


Is there any patches or mod's available that can fix these issues?


One last thought.... I might look for a MOO2 editor so I can make one habitable planet in every star system so that the other asteroids and gas giants can be converted.

Makes sense, since an empire can be determined enough to bring the resources and infrastructure to rebuild planets in systems with all asteroids and / or gas giants. The empire can bring the equipment on Doomstars, after all, they're almost planet-like in size.


Again, thanks for the feedback and help guys! Glad there's still a MOO2 community out there!

	31-01-2004 02:03									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I know know for a fact that anything triggers a cessation of attacks from the Anties, but it will taper way off. I have seen them come very very late a few times.
I tend to not use them as after awile it is mostly just bother, not a threat. IOW I got tired of even have to interupt my plans to spank them.

	31-01-2004 02:04									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

As to them not colonizing after a time, it is just one of the many weaknesses of the AI. It is a fun game, but like all game it is not without flaws.

	31-01-2004 02:34									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Sovereign Third, when I attacked the fake Antares, it has NO weapons or defenses (except the Star Fortress). A normal AI planet would have beam and missile bases, fighters, and torpedoes installed in it. Boy, the Antarans must be dumb to not do that, and they're supposed to be intensely militaristic. Last.... I noticed the AI never converts gas giants and asteroids to artificial planets. I'm not sure if they have the Planet Construction tech or not. But they do manage to terraform most planets with the occasional non-terraformed planet. I noticed this since I've seen the AI colonize a barren or desert planet, then about 200 turns later, it still is barren or desert even though the other planets become Gaia's. Is there any patches or mod's available that can fix these issues? One last thought.... I might look for a MOO2 editor so I can make one habitable planet in every star system so that the other asteroids and gas giants can be converted. Makes sense, since an empire can be determined enough to bring the resources and infrastructure to rebuild planets in systems with all asteroids and / or gas giants. The empire can bring the equipment on Doomstars, after all, they're almost planet-like in size. Again, thanks for the feedback and help guys! Glad there's still a MOO2 community out there!

Remember non creative races will not have all the tech, so you won't see my planets with MB (missile bases), Fighter Garrisons, Battle Station or Star Fortress. I won't have that tech most of the time and can't build them.
The Anties have a supped up Star Fort to offset those items and there ships are much stronger than standard AI ships. That is their defense. In the end, it does not matter, you will briong enought to win.
When you go after them, the ships you have do not have any trouble with planets that have all of the defenses you mentioned anyway.

Again the AI is not all that smart and may not have AP tech. I don't use it when I have, which is seldom anyway. I may use it on a system that has a great leader to get the extra production.
I would only bother with it if I was making a scoring run, it is just more work.

	31-01-2004 04:18									#16
	Got spare money?

Thanks for your feedback, vxma.

Its odd though. The AI in MOO3 plops down colonies on every available planet, even if my fleet leaves the system for a turn, the AI usually manages to slip in a colony ship or two and re-establishes colonies. They even colonize red 2 worlds. Apparently the only planets they don't colonize is stellar converted planets (lava ball planets).

Then in MOO2, the AI sucks at colonization and re-establishing colonies.

Guess thats one area that MOO3 actually improves upon, despite its many flaws.

	31-01-2004 05:15									#17
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Actually, once you are about to finish off a race, you should notice that several new colonies start springing around on the map - it's the AI race's last pathetic attempt to stay alive.

Also, the for all its other combat flaws, the AI does have a sense of retreating to save its ships from turn 1 , when your fleet is overwhelming compared to theirs, UNLESS, it's their last planet.

As for MOOIII's AI, well it BETTER BE GOOD! Why? MOO III forces you to rely on the AI to do certain things for you. Besides, MOOIII was made a lot of years after MOOII, so you would expect its developers to deliver a better product... (notice the use of the word "expect" )

	31-01-2004 05:44									#18
	Full PM-box? Change here!

in moo2 ive seen the alkalari retreat from their only planet, interesting message said that the 6 ships were destroyed trying to retreat from the only planet, too bad they didn't go to one of their friends(me...).

	31-01-2004 06:19									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

So basically I gotta do the colonizing for the AI after I pass the "point" in the game when they longer self - colonize?

Damn, that kind of sucks.

Is there any work-able sites for MOO2 patches? Also what does the patches fix, if anything significant?

	31-01-2004 07:58									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

http://www.masteroforion2.com/patch132.htm

I can't vouch for how this plays, but take a look.

	01-02-2004 15:53									#21
	Inflate your Upload Space

Bah, MoO 3 sucks.

	03-02-2004 01:06									#22
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Lets hope MOO4 will be better, if there ever will be any MOO4, due to the MOO3 fiasco.

	03-02-2004 01:20									#23
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

The best thing they could do is to complete the circle. MOO4 would best serve us loyal MOO players if it would be much more like MOO1 and much less like MOO3.

I anticipated MOO3 eagerly only to be very disappointed when it eventually came out.

	03-02-2004 03:20									#24
	Tired of ads?

I just wonder if they completely lost track of what people like in the first two games. Add in wanting to do something new and you can get way off the track.

	03-02-2004 03:31									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

They wanted to do too much new stuff, but then had too many design changes and ended up just trying to salvage something.

They ended up removing everything I liked (or at least made it worse) from the first 2 games, but didn't add anything interesting to make up for it.

	03-02-2004 06:21									#26
	Tired of ads?

I know this is not going to be popular, but I hope they made money on it anyway.
If they did, then someone will try again down the road. If they took a bath, it will be a lot longer before any one takes another stab at a Moo game.
Anyway I already spent my money.

	03-02-2004 11:43									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Well, the fact that Atari is not really out there to provide nay patches for it should answer that question/wish for you

In these days money talks...


With all the success Moo and MooII had, it took so long to start developing MOOIII. Given the fortune of MOOIII, I don't expect to see MOOIV any time soon...

	03-02-2004 12:27									#28
	Got spare money?

MoO and MoO 2 were written by Steve Barcia. So when Simtex folded, there was nobody to pick up the slack.

	04-02-2004 00:40									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Well...

I think if a MOO fan started a company to develop MOO4, then all of us would pretty much be happy with the product.

For MOO4, I envision:

1. race and game customization
2. ship refits
3. terraforming of planets
4. Ability to build artficial planets up to a system's maximum # of planets (Moo2 was 5, MOO3 was 8)
5. MOO3's DEA to reduce micromanagement
6. option to build or not to build ground troops as well as auto ship-build
7. More variety in random events
8. The Sol system has 9 planets and 1 asteroid belt to reflect actual Sol system
9. AI's are constitient with treaties and alliances, like MOO2 (not MOO3's peace - war - peace - war)
10. Additional MOO fan ideas

	04-02-2004 01:20									#30
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

What made Moo and Moo2 great for me was ship design and combat.

Any Moo4 would have to return the focus to that. Plus improve the problems from Moo2.

Ship initiave: I would prefer a combination of BOTF and Moo2 combat. Where you select targets and move your ships like Moo2, but the combat happens all at once.

Ship size and command points: Moo2 made it difficult to keep enough ships to even defend yourself. Making colony/outpost/transports require no command points, and allowing a defense fleet to intercept incoming ships would help alot.

More variable tech: As it is this is fairly well done. From the ship design threads here it seems we have a decent variety of designs. But what made moo so good was that you often had to use different weapons that you'd not normally choose. But uncreative in Moo2 was a disaster because you'd have too many problems with industry/tech/food.

I'd also like to see the miniturization changed, so that you get improvements to size and damage from extended use of a weapon. If I never built a ship with missiles I shouldn't be able to use them as well as a race that's been using them for hundreds of years.

I'll do more at some other time!