30-01-2004 02:05									#31
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It is very sad that your education system is so open to meddling from religious ignoramusses. It's really puzzling that you can sacrifice education, better job and more economic efficiency to this

	30-01-2004 03:58									#32
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We'll never understand why the Americans keep hanging on the Christian stuff from the history times, Spiffor. We just have to look on in bewilderment.

And then this "god" chap did what?

-Jam

	30-01-2004 03:59									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe AS a father and as a new transplant to GA, this is extremely disconcerting especially in light of the fact that GA is ranked 50th in quality of education.

HAH! We're better than you!










Barely

Florida, 49th in the union.

	30-01-2004 04:07									#34
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quote: They may not understand how evolution explains the antibiotic resistance in bacteria.

Macroevolution! = Microevolution.

Why such a big deal? Students are not going to stop going into the biological sciences just because of a change like this.

I agree, leave this for the university students who will be able to apply the concepts to a much greater extent than in High school.

	30-01-2004 04:13									#35
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Macroevolution is not the same as microevolution; however, macroevolution is driven by microevolution and other factors. It is merely an abstraction of microevolutionary principles. More is know about microevolution due to experiments (hard to due macroevolutionary studies due to human shortsightedness and the vast timeframes that may be involved).

Students who do not have the opportunity to learn about evolution may not have the chance to become interested in it, and they may fall behind if they take college-level biology classes.

	30-01-2004 04:16									#36
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The point of science class is to teach students science, and evolution is the accepted theory about the creation of species and so forth. Not to teach evolution in science class is utterly absurd.

	30-01-2004 04:19									#37
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The point of science class is to teach students science, and evolution is the accepted theory about the creation of species and so forth. Not to teach evolution in science class is utterly absurd.

	30-01-2004 04:28									#38
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quote: New middle and high school science standards proposed by state Schools Superintendent Kathy Cox strike references to "evolution" and replace them with the term "biological changes over time," a revision critics say will further weaken learning in a critical subject.

So, because they'll say "biological changes over time" instead of "evolution", George is shutting out all science and dooming their children to the Middle Ages?

I didn't see anything in the article prohibiting the teaching of evolution.

	30-01-2004 04:33									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Verto So, because they'll say "biological changes over time" instead of "evolution", George is shutting out all science and dooming their children to the Middle Ages? I didn't see anything in the article prohibiting the teaching of evolution.

The phrase is utterly vague (what kind of biological changes?).

Its like trying to teach math by saying he number after 1, instead of being able to say 2. It will create problems. The very fact the word is removed also send the message there is something tabboo about the topic.

	30-01-2004 04:35									#40
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I think Arkansas is 47th.

GO ARKANSAS! YOU'RE NOT THE STUPIDEST!

Oh, and thanks to Georgia for ensuring that as long as is foreseeable, we won't be.

	30-01-2004 04:37									#41
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quote: however, macroevolution is driven by microevolution and other factors. It is merely an abstraction of microevolutionary principles.

Sounds rather vague and theoretical rather than the concrete 'fact' as asserted by the militant teachers in this article.

quote: It will create problems.

Right. Like everyone who just graduates from high school has a proper understanding of evolution. Why misinform them?

Perhaps I should quote Pope:

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing,
Drink deep or not, the pyrean spring.

	30-01-2004 04:52									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Right. Like everyone who just graduates from high school has a proper understanding of evolution. Why misinform them?

you are right, too many people are scientifically illiterate when they leave HS. the answer is intense education in science at the HS level, so people leave hS with a better understading of evolution.

	30-01-2004 04:54									#43
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quote: intense education in science at the HS level, so people leave hS with a better understading of evolution.

Would the HS students be willing to learn?

	30-01-2004 05:30									#44
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If you'd like, I can point you to some of the papers and books my professors have written (though they are quite difficult to read for non-bio people) and other important works in this field. Macroevolution is currently not as concrete as microevolution, but there is a very large body of evidence for it - namely, phylogenetic analyses.

	30-01-2004 05:32									#45
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quote: Macroevolution is currently not as concrete as microevolution, but there is a very large body of evidence for it - namely, phylogenetic analyses.

Sure. Send me a PM, if you don't want to post in the thread.

	30-01-2004 05:54									#46
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Morey, D.F. 1994. The early evolution of the domestic dog. American Scientist 82: 336-347

Cody, M., and J. Overton. 1996. Short-term evolution of reduced dispersal in island plant populations. Journal of Ecology 84: 53-61

Buss, D.M. 1998. Sexual strategies theory: Historical origins and current status. The Journal of Sex Research 35: 19-31

S. Freeman & J.C. Herron, Evolutionary Analysis (3rd edition), Prentice Hall, Upper Saddle River, NJ, 2004

Stearns, S. C., and D. Ebert. 2001. Evolution in health and disease: work in progress. Quarterly Review of Biology 76: 417-431

Mallet, J. 2001. The speciation revolution - Commentary. Journal of Evolutionary Biology 14:887-888

Harvey, P. H., and A. Purvis. 1991. Comparative methods for explaining adaptations. Nature 351:619-624

Hardison, R. 1999. The evolution of hemoglobin. American Scientist 87:126-137

Carroll, S. B. 2000. Endless forms: the evolution of gene regulation and morphological diversity. Cell 101:577-580

Benton, M. J., and R. J. Twitchett. 2003. How to kill (almost) all life: the end-Permian extinction event. Trends in Ecology & Evolution 18:358-365

There are also Gould's paper on punctuated equilibria, various responses to that paper, Hamilton's paper on kin selection and relatedness asymmetry - which is somewhat related to speciation/macroevo.

Hmm.. also look up Kimura's theory of neutral [molecular] evolution.

	30-01-2004 06:00									#47
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quote: There are also Gould's paper on punctuated equilibria,

I've read his accounts, and some of the counter-arguments. It seems to me a desperate attempt to smooth over some of the problems.

I think the biggest problem is the timeline. If evolution happens so slowly, yet can happen rapidly, why haven't, statistically, we observed any changes from macroevolution? Humans are radically altering the environment.

quote: also look up Kimura's theory of neutral [molecular] evolution.

Have not heard of the theory.

	30-01-2004 06:05									#48
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quote: If evolution happens so slowly, yet can happen rapidly, why haven't, statistically, we observed any changes from macroevolution? Humans are radically altering the environment.

Humans are altering the environment faster than most other species can cope with, causing extinctions. There are periods of rapid change as recorded in soil/rock layers that correspond to a time of rapid change. PE is certainly plausible, but the chances of it happening are only during prolonged exposure to a gradual change in environment.

I can't recommend any papers on phylogenetic analysis yet, maybe later this semester

	30-01-2004 06:12									#49
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You have a microwave. It beeps! You open it and there's nachos inside. covered with delicious gooey melted cheese.

An evolutionist would say someone put chips with cheese on top of them in the microwave, and turned it on. A creationist would say that the nachos were sent by God straight from Heaven.

EDIT: MACROEVOLUTION AND MICROEVOLUTION

Beep! You open the microwave. There's nachos covered with the same delicious melted cheese. But it's not completely melted. You figure that someone put them in beforehand.

You put them back in for some more seconds. Beep! Now they're completely melted. The cheese just microevolved from 90% melted to 100% melted. But a leap as large as not melted at all to 90% melted, you had to infer, becuase you weren't around back then.

final edit: This is ONLY AN ANALOGY. You CANNOT quote me as thinking that animals melt or anything like that. Or you can, but I'll deny it and everyone who looks at the OP will point and laugh at you.

Last edited by mrmitchell on 30-01-2004 at 06:19

	30-01-2004 06:24									#50
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quote: A creationist would say that the nachos were sent by God straight from Heaven.

How does the cheese get on top of the Nachos? Someone has to put the cheese on top. Doesn't just hop on there, and there are no attractive forces between cheese and nachos.

How is it any different to the nacho to say that God put the cheese on top, or that a man did?

	30-01-2004 06:56									#51
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It was just a shitty analogy...and besides, Ben, I was hungry.

	30-01-2004 08:09									#52
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cathy cox is a loon.
she's from south georgia, and i think she lives in cobb county.

you know, the one that was happy that the olympic torch route didn't go through them because one of the runners would have been gay.

	30-01-2004 09:02									#53
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Evolution is such a straightforward and fundamental part of Biology that it should be taught at High School, not when the Student moves to college like Kenobi suggests. I don't think any other modern country would leave it so late.

Yeah also, do those lovely Fundies affect the other subjects that might touch on Creationism? Like Geology, History and some Physics?

	30-01-2004 09:18									#54
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my gosh. This and George Bush's idiotic constitutional amendment to the "BILL OF RIGHTS" really put a disgusting tone on the intelligence of americans in general

Frankly, all that I see coming out of his government nowadays are the following:
"Please don't teach us tolerance."
"Please don't teach us things that contradict our sky-god religions"

"Please let us be bigots and hate people just because they aren't as 'free' as us... because they're german or french"


(Although I have some problems with germany and france's regimes, the majority of americans have no real reason for their problems, they're just following bush and have no real opinions )

My gosh, as was said earlier in this thread, it's getting harder and harder to find intelligent conservatives!

	30-01-2004 09:26									#55
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As I regularly get beaten up for.
So you Ecuadorian's lived by the island for millions of years and it took an Englishman to discover it.

www.vivecuador.com

	30-01-2004 09:55									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I've read his accounts, and some of the counter-arguments. It seems to me a desperate attempt to smooth over some of the problems.

Hmmm, sort of like positing a god who builds everything in 6 days. (And I don't think He even bothered to build it to code ...)

	30-01-2004 10:52									#57
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quote: Ben, I was hungry.

Still, I had fun talking about attractive forces between cheese and nachos.

	30-01-2004 12:25									#58
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I thought we were done with all this bullshit. I hate americans sometimes

	30-01-2004 12:29									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Evil Knevil Yeah also, do those lovely Fundies affect the other subjects that might touch on Creationism? Like Geology, History and some Physics?

You are assuming that fundies are literate and aren't just still mulling about in a big herd movement that started in the 1930s or whatever.

	30-01-2004 12:31									#60
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quote: You are assuming that fundies are literate

So I don't count as a Fundy? That's nice to know.