31-01-2004 05:21									#91
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quote: By your reasoning racist and aethist have a say in what should be taught in schools as well, so obviously kids should be told there i no god, and black people are inferior becuase "some" people agree with it.

There is a difference between 'having a say' and whether this should be taught. Christians should be able to bring up complaints with the system just as anyone else. Whether their complaints become incorporated or not will have to do with the validity of the complaints.

	31-01-2004 05:22									#92
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quote: I just don't think High School does a good job of teaching evolution, period.

As much as it pains me to say it, I find this to be quite true. Many people have no clue what evolution actually is, explained in scientific terms.

Evolution is merely an abstraction of physics which deals with biology. The basis of all modern biological science is evolution.

	31-01-2004 05:26									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Religious ignoramusses should be allowed not to get any education if their parents want to. This way, we can hope many more religious people will be illiterate and won't be able to understand and influence government

We cannot punish kids for the crimes of their parents.

	31-01-2004 05:33									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So why does it make a difference to men whether they are created by God or evolved from monkeys?

I don't know. You tell me. Quite a few people seem to combine the two with a creator causing the big bang and maybe guiding evolution. Don't see the point myself.

	31-01-2004 05:39									#95
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo We cannot punish kids for the crimes of their parents.

They're wasted anyways

But I admit a much more sensible solution would be to castrate religious people. This way, no kid will suffer from their parents

	31-01-2004 05:40									#96
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quote: Quite a few people seem to combine the two with a creator causing the big bang and maybe guiding evolution.

Yep. That would be my view. Rather than leaving everything up to 'random chance.'

I am interested in the answer to that question from these other folks.

	31-01-2004 07:38									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Sounds rather vague and theoretical rather than the concrete 'fact' as asserted by the militant teachers in this article.

How many times do I have to post this link?

Face it, speciation is an observed fact.

Considering how old the article is, one would think that creationists would have given up the bogus "no macroevolution" bit. But no.

	31-01-2004 07:41									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Yep. That would be my view. Rather than leaving everything up to 'random chance.' I am interested in the answer to that question from these other folks.

It is utterly stupid to presuppose an omnipotent Creator in order to resolve what you view as improbabilities.

	31-01-2004 08:09									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Yep. That would be my view. Rather than leaving everything up to 'random chance.' I am interested in the answer to that question from these other folks.

I think that, if evolution is guided and teleological, then we can say with certainty that the Goddess is a crack addict with attention deficit disorder.

Niches have appeared and disappeared with such frequency that even a South Korean StarCraft addict with the reflexes of a Russian Quake monkey would have lost her head in no time flat, cubed, or tesseracted.

Less relevantly

quote: Originally written by Douglas Adams Important facts from Galactic history, number two: (Reproduced from the Siderial Daily Mentioner's Book of popular Galactic History.) Since this Galaxy began, vast civilizations have risen and fallen, risen and fallen, risen and fallen so often that it's quite tempting to think that life in the Galaxy must be (a) something akin to seasick - space-sick, time sick, history sick or some such thing, and (b) stupid.

	31-01-2004 14:56									#100
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quote: In practice, even strong adherents of the BSC use phenetic similarities and discontinuities for delimiting species.

So if it looks different, it's another species?

	31-01-2004 15:01									#101
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Christianity Beats Evolution At School Teachings?

	31-01-2004 15:56									#102
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Biological Species Concept (BSC): a reproductively isolated population

"Species are groups of interbreeding natural populations that are reproductively
isolated from other such groups." (Mayr, 1942; 1969:26)

BSC is one among several species concepts used by biologists. It currently the most intuitive among them, but the ESC (evolutionary species concept): "An evolutionary species is a single lineage of ancestor-descendant populations
which maintains its identity from other such lineages and which has its own
evolutionary tendencies and historical fate." (Wiley, 1981:25 ; cf. Simpson, 1961:153)

and the PhSC (phylogenetic species concept): recognizable monophyletic group
"A ... cluster of organisms that is diagnosably distinct from other such clusters,
and within which there is a parental pattern of ancestry and descent." (Cracraft 1989)

are becoming more prevalent.

Formatting is screwed up, I know, but I'm too lazy/tired to fix it.

	31-01-2004 18:17									#103
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Since "evolution" is a mainstream scientific term, I'd say it's pretty much a requirement to use it in science courses. If people were upset about heliocentricity, should science courses be obligated to drop the word in favor of a phrase like, "planetary rotation around a star." What the hell is the point?

But I do like this quote from the AP article:

quote: Social conservatives who prefer religious creation to be taught instead of evolution criticized the proposal as well. "If you're teaching the concept without the word, what's the point?" said Rep. Bobby Franklin, a Republican. "It's stupid. It's like teaching gravity without using the word gravity."

Nice to see a Creationist acknowledging that evolution is as solid scientifically as gravity.

	31-01-2004 18:53									#104
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wrt the species thing, as my biology teacher put it, a species is "basically whatever you can get everyone else to agree on". If everyone calls it a species, it's a species.

	31-01-2004 21:45									#105
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There's always one dissenter though.

	31-01-2004 23:30									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Nice to see a Creationist acknowledging that evolution is as solid scientifically as gravity.

I think you're mistaken. He was mentioning that teaching evolution is exactly as stupid as teaching gravity, when we so obiously live in a world of "floatity"

	01-02-2004 01:19									#107
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The problem with defining a species is that the spectrum of inidividuals is quite continuous. The question at a genetic level is: at what points do we delimit certain DNA sequences and classify those as a species? The BSC and other species concepts take this into account by not having a predefined set of criteria on the genetic level.