30-01-2004 15:57									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I thank god every day that I don't live in that dopey region... it's ironic that so called "conservatives" who cry about the powerful government and their terrible influence are the very ones USING GOVERNMENT to push their stupid agendas...

They are just demonstrating how dangerous government can be.

	30-01-2004 18:10									#62
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As a conservative fundamentalist I decry the crippling effect that liberalism has had on the public schools over the last 30 years but....this narrow minded attempt to roll back the clock is useless.

The real answer to this problem is getting the right to use our tax dollars to educate our children in the schools of our choice.

	30-01-2004 18:15									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I thought we were done with all this bullshit. I hate americans sometimes

"Sometimes"?

	30-01-2004 20:12									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Would the HS students be willing to learn?

That is their problem. Students in a catholic school might not be willing to learn religion either- does that mean the word God should be substituted for "non-corporeal entity"?

	30-01-2004 22:03									#66
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quote: That is their problem. Students in a catholic school might not be willing to learn religion either

Private and public school systems. Can the public school system refuse to teach someone? The private school could just ask the student to leave.

	30-01-2004 22:37									#67
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A public school can ask a student to leave if they are sufficiently disruptive. No disruption, no expulsion, I wouldn't think. They might fail, though.

Ah, the hazards of being a fundamentalist neanderthal.

Ah, the hazards of having a majority of fundamentalist neanderthals in your state...

But by all means, Ben, stick your fingers in your ears and close your eyes and pretend the pink unicorn on the other side of the moon made the earth in 6 days.

-Arrian

	30-01-2004 22:47									#68
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quote: But by all means, Ben, stick your fingers in your ears and close your eyes and pretend the pink unicorn on the other side of the moon made the earth in 6 days.

Not just the Earth, plenty of other stuff too. Don't forget that!

Actually, I don't believe in 6 'creation-days' being 24 hour periods, but I guess that would spoil your rant, eh?

	30-01-2004 22:53									#69
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But you admit it's a pink unicorn! Woohoo!



Whatever. Believe as you wish. I, for one, am happy your vote counts in Canada and not the US. We really don't need any more religious conservatives.

-Arrian

	30-01-2004 22:55									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Private and public school systems. Can the public school system refuse to teach someone? The private school could just ask the student to leave.

And public schools also have to give students information they need to succeed and become full rounded citizens, not whatever fairy tales a private org wants to push- hence, evolution.

	30-01-2004 23:24									#71
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quote: Carter blasts Georgia evolution proposal By MARY MACDONALD Atlanta Journal-Constitution Staff Writer Former President Jimmy Carter said Friday he is embarrassed by the proposal to remove the term evolution from Georgia's biology curriculum. "As a Christian, a trained engineer and scientist, and a professor at Emory University, I am embarrassed by Superintendent Kathy Cox's attempt to censor and distort the education of Georgia's students," Carter said in a statement. Her recommendation that the word "evolution" be removed from the standards "will adversely affect the teaching of science and leave our high school graduates with a serious handicap as they enter college or private life where freedom of speech will be permitted." "Nationwide ridicule of Georgia's public school system will be inevitable if this proposal is adopted, and additional and undeserved discredit will be brought on our excellent universities as our state's reputation is damaged," Carter wrote. Carter, a Baptist, said that existing references to evolution in Georgia's curriculum have done nothing to damage religious faith in the state. State school Superintendent Kathy Cox said Thursday that the change, which would strike the word "evolution" from Georgia's science curriculum, is only a suggestion and far from becoming official policy. Cox's proposal for new middle and high school science standards would ban references to "evolution" and replace it with the term "biological changes over time." She says the world "evolution" is a "buzzword that causes a lot of negative reaction." The proposal is part of more than 800 pages of revisions to Georgia's curriculum that were posted Jan. 12 on the Department of Education Web site for educators and the public to consider. Cox spokesman Kirk Englehardt said the superintendent was reviewing Carter's statement Friday morning and did not have an immediate response. In an interview Thursday afternoon, Gov. Sonny Perdue didn't want to give his opinion on the evolution debate. But as he has done throughout his first year, he supported Cox and her decisions. "I trust the superintendent and the [state] Board of Education. We appointed great people to the board," Perdue said. "And the superintendent is perfectly capable of making those kind of curriculum decisions. I don't think that's an issue that the people of Georgia expect the governor to get down into." In an interview shortly after his November 2002 victory, Perdue said has "no problem" with children being exposed to creationism, evolution and other theories, but said the decision should rest with the local school districts.

	30-01-2004 23:55									#72
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quote: And public schools also have to give students information they need to succeed and become full rounded citizens,

So why do students need to learn about evolution in order to become 'full rounded citizens?' I would think things like civics, should become that much more important given your criteria.

	31-01-2004 00:52									#73
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To understand what it means to be human, in the 21st century.

Read "The Third Chimpanzee" by Jared Diamond.

As far as Cox wanting to have alternatives to evolution debated in biology, I'm all for it.

As long as we get to debate evolution on Sundays, at Ms. Cox's church.

Until then, I have a deal:

Keep your babble the hell out of our kids schools, and we'll keep our monkeys out of your temple.

	31-01-2004 01:01									#74
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Anyone who disputes evolution is a MORON. Georgia is full of MORONS. End of story.

	31-01-2004 01:02									#75
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I try to avoid Georgia when at all possible.

	31-01-2004 01:20									#76
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Sigh

	31-01-2004 01:21									#77
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"...and that's when I said, 'I am not dating girls named after states again!'"

	31-01-2004 02:02									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So why do students need to learn about evolution in order to become 'full rounded citizens?' I would think things like civics, should become that much more important given your criteria.

Amazingly, the schools could teach BOTH. Sorry Ben, but you have yet to come up with any valid concerns, except besides religious ones , and since this is public school, such concerns are at best tertiary.

	31-01-2004 03:35									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer "...and that's when I said, 'I am not dating girls named after states again!'"

Dopey dopey Georgia.

	31-01-2004 03:49									#80
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In the interest of fairness, Georgia should allow for secular sermons and workshops in the sciences in churches across Georgia. I'm sure Ben could agree to that.

	31-01-2004 03:49									#81
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quote: To understand what it means to be human, in the 21st century.

So why does it make a difference to men whether they are created by God or evolved from monkeys?

quote: Keep your babble the hell out of our kids schools, and we'll keep our monkeys out of your temple.

Difference between the two cases. Christians have to pay for public schools, you do not have to pay for churches.

	31-01-2004 03:51									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Difference between the two cases. Christians have to pay for public schools, you do not have to pay for churches.

We allow churches not to pay taxes.

	31-01-2004 03:51									#83
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quote: Sorry Ben, but you have yet to come up with any valid concerns, except besides religious ones , and since this is public school, such concerns are at best tertiary.

Dodge.

Please answer the question Gepap. Why do students need to learn evolution to become 'full rounded citizens?'

	31-01-2004 03:53									#84
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quote: We allow churches not to pay taxes.

Explain to me how they place a burden on society. They do many good works, that would otherwise need to be paid for by taxes.

	31-01-2004 03:57									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Explain to me how they place a burden on society. They do many good works, that would otherwise need to be paid for by taxes.

Why shouldn't they? They benefit from government services, do they not? Or we could except the fire department from saving burning churches?

I have no problem with keeping the tax free status of churches, but the fact a citizen who defines himself as a christian must pays taxes mean **** with regards to the teaching of science being undermined by people with little grasp of science due to their personal beliefs.

Its BIOLOGY CLASS. Thus, teach what science today tells us about BIOLOGY, and a big part opf that is evolution. Fundies will simply have to deal with it, o rpull thier kids out of school and teach them themselves.

	31-01-2004 04:00									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Please answer the question Gepap. Why do students need to learn evolution to become 'full rounded citizens?'

Because science literacy is increasingly important in the modern world, and environmental issues do matter, and part of being able to understand such issues means understanding modern biology. Ditto with many sociological issues, anthropological issues.

In general, if the question is, what sort of sciences people should learn, it is more important that the general public learn biology and evolution than physics. But we are not going to cut physics education form schools either.

	31-01-2004 04:24									#87
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quote: christian must pays taxes mean **** with regards to the teaching of science being undermined by people with little grasp of science due to their personal beliefs.

It means Christians get to have a say on what they want taught to their children, what they are paying for. Either you exempt them from school taxes, or you allow them a say.

quote: Its BIOLOGY CLASS. Thus, teach what science today tells us about BIOLOGY, and a big part opf that is evolution. Fundies will simply have to deal with it, o rpull thier kids out of school and teach them themselves.

How will this rewording significantly alter the Biology program in high school?

quote: it is more important that the general public learn biology and evolution than physics

Why? Physics underlies everything in the world.

	31-01-2004 04:36									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi It means Christians get to have a say on what they want taught to their children, what they are paying for. Either you exempt them from school taxes, or you allow them a say.

Actually, no. By your reasoning racist and aethist have a say in what should be taught in schools as well, so obviously kids should be told there i no god, and black people are inferior becuase "some" people agree with it. Only some Christians think like you- Carter is a rgeat example of a church going american who thinks this stance is idiotic. In the end, education is about that, teahcing. If Christians can;t compete in the world of ideas with evolution, that is the problem of your ideas.

quote: How will this rewording significantly alter the Biology program in high school?

Did you read 1984? How would rewording the Bible to change all references to God to "non-corporeal entity" change a thing in terms of teahcing kids the bible? Answer, the same way.

quote: Why? Physics underlies everything in the world.

Who says? The same people who say evolution underlies the biological part of the world we live in? So how can you follow one set of what they say and ignore the other? That is hypocrasy.

Again, science class is for teahcing science. Science says evolution is how things happen. If you have a problem, end science classes.

	31-01-2004 05:09									#89
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Religious ignoramusses should be allowed not to get any education if their parents want to.

This way, we can hope many more religious people will be illiterate and won't be able to understand and influence government

	31-01-2004 05:17									#90
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quote: Carter is a rgeat example of a church going american who thinks this stance is idiotic. In the end, education is about that, teahcing. If Christians can;t compete in the world of ideas with evolution, that is the problem of your ideas.

Why is this about a competition between Christian ideas, and evolution? I just don't think High School does a good job of teaching evolution, period.

quote: Did you read 1984? How would rewording the Bible to change all references to God to "non-corporeal entity" change a thing in terms of teahcing kids the bible? Answer, the same way.

Yeah, I read 1984.

"he who controls the present, controls the past,
he who controls the past, controls the future."

Changes in nature, is precisely what evidence they have for evolution. So why not teach the changes, and avoid all this political stuff? Why not say that this is a theory, one explanation for these changes?

quote: The same people who say evolution underlies the biological part of the world we live in?

Does it in the same way that the laws of physics operate on the universe?

quote: Again, science class is for teahcing science. Science says evolution is how things happen. If you have a problem, end science classes.

Science also does not ignore evidence when it suggests problems with the current theories.