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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:33
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quote:
Israel is occupying Palestinian land and violating the Fourth Geneva convention as well as UN resolutions. If Israelis want sympathy they can stop ****ing the Palestinians over. This attack was in response for an Israeli attack the previous day. I didn't see any pictures of that. |
To sum it up, undiscriminate violence can be used as long as you think the goal is just.
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:33
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
That's what Benni Morris argues. |
And Kach.
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Zylka
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Israel is occupying Palestinian land and violating the Fourth Geneva convention as well as UN resolutions. If Israelis want sympathy they can stop ****ing the Palestinians over. This attack was in response for an Israeli attack the previous day. I didn't see any pictures of that.
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Another "equative" hack. What was comparitive target in the Israeli attack, and why would pictures have any of the same intrinsic translation? In short - what's your sympathetic point, if any
Oh, it's all so unfair - isn't it.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:33
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To me this conflict is more than 3 years old, it is fifty years old, and I view it in its totality. And in those fifty years, if we take Israeli vs Palestinians, it has been the Palestinians who have lost more, not only land and freedoms but people as well. In the last 3 years about 940 Palestinians civilians and about 750-800 Israeli civilians have died. These last 3 years are the only time in the conflict between the two were the number of israeli dead civilians has been anywhere near those of Palestinians: in all years prior, the number of dead palestinians civlians was far and beyond those of Israelis: true for the first intifadah, true for the 80's and the late 70's (for example, it is estimated 2000 Palestians, mostly Civilians, died in the Israeli incursions into Lebanon in March 1978).
What has happened in the last 5 years is that the level of violence from the palestinians has gone up and from the Israeli down- the fact that this still mean more dead Palestinian civlians than Israeli civilians is one of the reasons I am broadly pro-Palestinian. The level of suffering between the two people from 1950-2004 has been nowhere near similar, and even in the last 3 years of violence, the Palestinians civlians has STILL been worse off than Israeli civilians. What has happened is that the Palestinians have lost thier moral high ground due to thier increasing violence.
As for the video. Honestly, yawn. It is gruesome, no doubt, but if we had been able to see video of, for example, those buildings in gaza destroyed and the 15 victims who died in their sleep when the DF used a 2000lb bomb to assasinate a Hamas leade, would it be FAR more gruesome? NOt really. And in the end, both videos would be but a sad litany: there are countless other ocnflicts in this world-anyone here wan to find A a video of the 100+ people killed in Najaf I believe? Would that be not far more gruesome? and what about some flicks from some hellhole in Africa? Maybe the aftermath of Rwanda? Faining moral outrage ater watching a video is easy, but I remember being a kid and everyone doing nothing even as we looked at film of masses of bodies floating on rivers and lakes form Rwanda, or the gruesome piles of corpses.
Sadly, in the end, this video is nothing but a way to feed "outrage", or simply a way to titilate in a sick way.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:33
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I think the intent is important factor. That is what makes me side with Israel. Palestinian terrorist groups (note, I don't say Palestinians in general!) do target Israeli citizens and want them all dead. That is a fact. THis is IMPORTANT distinction.
Freedom fighters, they would attack the IDF.
Eli, Siro, maybe you can answer this because I haven't really followed the news lately, but has there ever been an incident, where the attack was 100% targetted on IDF, for example ambushing IDF soldiers in bigger scale, or just suicide bomber running to the middle of IDF soldiers and blowing himself up? Sniper activity? Anything?
I guess there has been some incidents, but it's a fact, that they target civilians rather than IDF. THis is why they are not freedom fighters. This is why they are rotten terrorist scum.
Because: Killing bunch of civilians causes more misery than killin few soldiers. So, the IDF are also Israeli, killing them is in the plans of killing all Israelis, so why not do this? Because it wouldn't bring enough chaos and misery. It's not freedom fighting. EVEN if it was, it would be war crimes all over, and the ones ordering these attacks, they'd be war criminals. So you can take your pick, terrorists or war criminals, I like to use the terrorist in this case.
Listen up, if IDF would stop it's number one priority, which is to protect Israel and its citizens, and drop their guns, what do you think would happen? The terrorists want them all dead, they said it themselves, it's not stopping the suicide bombings I mean. It will never stop either. Not unless they are all killed. They will go on forever.
So, if you look at it like this, should the IDF still not react, if the attacks would continue as they would? Of course they should not drop their guns! They should continue what they do, which is to hunt down every last one of the terrorists, even if it's a hopeless task. One killed terrorists is potentially equalling to saving 10 Israeli citizens. Every time you kill a terrorist, you save innocent lives. You can take that to the bank too.
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Zylka
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
To me this conflict is more than 3 years old, it is fifty years old, and I view it in its totality. And in those fifty years, if we take Israeli vs Palestinians, it has been the Palestinians who have lost more, not only land and freedoms but people as well. In the last 3 years about 940 Palestinians civilians and about 750-800 Israeli civilians have died. These last 3 years are the only time in the conflict between the two were the number of israeli dead civilians has been anywhere near those of Palestinians: in all years prior, the number of dead palestinians civlians was far and beyond those of Israelis: true for the first intifadah, true for the 80's and the late 70's (for example, it is estimated 2000 Palestians, mostly Civilians, died in the Israeli incursions into Lebanon in March 1978).
What has happened in the last 5 years is that the level of violence from the palestinians has gone up and from the Israeli down- the fact that this still mean more dead Palestinian civlians than Israeli civilians is one of the reasons I am broadly pro-Palestinian. The level of suffering between the two people from 1950-2004 has been nowhere near similar, and even in the last 3 years of violence, the Palestinians civlians has STILL been worse off than Israeli civilians. What has happened is that the Palestinians have lost thier moral high ground due to thier increasing violence.
As for the video. Honestly, yawn. It is gruesome, no doubt, but if we had been able to see video of, for example, those buildings in gaza destroyed and the 15 victims who died in their sleep when the DF used a 2000lb bomb to assasinate a Hamas leade, would it be FAR more gruesome? NOt really. And in the end, both videos would be but a sad litany: there are countless other ocnflicts in this world-anyone here wan to find A a video of the 100+ people killed in Najaf I believe? Would that be not far more gruesome? and what about some flicks from some hellhole in Africa? Maybe the aftermath of Rwanda? Faining moral outrage ater watching a video is easy, but I remember being a kid and everyone doing nothing even as we looked at film of masses of bodies floating on rivers and lakes form Rwanda, or the gruesome piles of corpses.
Sadly, in the end, this video is nothing but a way to feed "outrage", or simply a way to titilate in a sick way. |
Interesting. So I forgot.. you're for the state of Israeli to dismantle?
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:33
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And if you have decided to join terrorist organisation like these, you have agreed with their goals, which is to kill all Israelis and drive them to the sea. Even if you have never touched a gun, but have agreed on this and joined, it shows your intentions and you support the organisation and you are potential future bomber, in my eyes you are then free to be buried. It's not guerilla war either. Guerilla tactics sometimes might include increasing the stress levels of local people, but it's MAIN goal is to beat the enemy, which is the army. There is no justification what the terrorists are doing, however there are some justifications what IDF is doing, which is to try to prevent these attacks from happening, and they can't stop them, they can only make the their lines thinner and hoping to take out as many bombers as possible before they strike, or before they strike again. If IDF wouldn't do this, there would be whole lots of more dead Israelis, multiple times more than now.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:33
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quote:
but if we had been able to see video of, for example, those buildings in gaza destroyed and the 15 victims who died in their sleep when the DF used a 2000lb bomb to assasinate a Hamas leade, would it be FAR more gruesome? NOt really. |
I'm not positively sure, but I think that it was a mistake - the building was thought to be empty of civilians at the time.
What happenned IIRC, is that some adjustant buildings unexpectedly collapsed as well. And yes, it was unpredictable - the IDF has units whose job it is to calculate the amount of damage done to the target. They make mistakes too.
As far as journalists killed in the conflict - they are risking their lives in a battle field. No one promised a safe haven from bullets from either side. Furthermore, the IDF has clear orders on warning shots. If someone - anyone approaches the soldiers from the side of the armed men, they will open fire above the heads first, near the feet next, and finally to the limbs (iirc). It applies to everyone, including journalists.
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Zevico
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Melbourne
Apr 2002
time: 15:33
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Is it just me or is a comparison of numbers between Israeli and Palestinian casualties absolutely ridiculous?
One situation is a battle (in most cases), the other an explosion. How is this comparison in any way relevant?
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Zylka
Interesting. So I forgot.. you're for the state of Israeli to dismantle? |
No. I am for the state of israel to return to its 1967 borders, with some compromise about Jerusalem.
To quote more numbers meant to put things in perspective: in the last 54 years, about 2500 israelis have been killed by Palestinians (go check out the Israeli Foreing MInistry website for numbers). At least 3 times that number of Palestinians have been killed. The big difference is that while still more palestinians have died in the last 3 years than Israelis, the last 3 years have been BY FAR the bloddiest for Israelis, while not the same for Palestinians (The beginning of the Lebanon war in 1982-85 were deadlier). Only since 1992 have Israeli casualties been in the same order of magnitude as Palestinian loses-which points to far more 'effective' Palestinian violence.
BUt overall, when you think that the WHOLE M.E. conflict has killed around 100,000 people since 1950 (most being dead soldiers killed on the battlefield), it shows that this conflict, for all the press it gets, has been one of the least bloody of the last 50 years. On it's own way, that is a very sad commentary.
Can anyone find out if Israeli has been the state to see the most civilians dead from Suicide attacks? (OK, obviosuly not thanks to 9/11, but for his, ignore 9/11) The Tamil Tigers are very active in suicide attacks (no, not muslim) so Sri Lanka might be up there as well...
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Zylka
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
It's amazing how you people are still in denial. YOU are in the wrong. YOU are the occupiers. YOU are the racists. And you want to play the victim.
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So - just what the f* exactly are YOU doing in (and giving credibility to) occupied North America?
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Kuciwalker
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of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
To me this conflict is more than 3 years old, it is fifty years old, and I view it in its totality. And in those fifty years, if we take Israeli vs Palestinians, it has been the Palestinians who have lost more, not only land and freedoms but people as well. In the last 3 years about 940 Palestinians civilians and about 750-800 Israeli civilians have died. These last 3 years are the only time in the conflict between the two were the number of israeli dead civilians has been anywhere near those of Palestinians: in all years prior, the number of dead palestinians civlians was far and beyond those of Israelis: true for the first intifadah, true for the 80's and the late 70's (for example, it is estimated 2000 Palestians, mostly Civilians, died in the Israeli incursions into Lebanon in March 1978). |
READ THE THREAD. Israel may kill more Palestinian civilians, but both a) the ratio of civilians dead to combatants dead and b) the ratio of civilians killed to the number of civilians that COULD have been killed were higher for the Palestinians. Your logic could be used to say, for instance, that Americans are less wealthy than (insert name of tiny, impoverished nation here) because there are "more poor people in America" 
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:33
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quote:
It's amazing how you people are still in denial. YOU are in the wrong. YOU are the occupiers. YOU are the racists. And you want to play the victim. |
Spoken like a true fanatic.
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:33
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quote:
I'm not the fanatic here. I am not the one denying the obvious truth. |
You claim that an obvious truth exists and endorse attacks on civilians in the name of that truth, just like Kach and Al Quaeda. You are the fanatic here.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:33
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quote:
Originally posted by skywalker
READ THE THREAD. Israel may kill more Palestinian civilians, but both a) the ratio of civilians dead to combatants dead and b) the ratio of civilians killed to the number of civilians that COULD have been killed were higher for the Palestinians. Your logic could be used to say, for instance, that Americans are less wealthy than (insert name of tiny, impoverished nation here) because there are "more poor people in America" |
This came up elsewhere. Yes, I read the thread: Another fact-given that the palestinian population we are talking about is smaller than the Israeli population (since Palestinians outside the territories are not counted), given that more Palestinian civilians have died than Israeli civlians it means the Israelis hav killed a larger portion of the Palestinian population than the Palestinians of the Israeli population- what does that tell you?
As far saying : "The Israelis could have killed mroe Palestinian civlians but didn;t", that is a moronic arguements: in essence you would be saying "The Pals are war criminals! and see, the Israelis could be even worse war criminals than the Pals have been, but they haven't done it, so there!". Well, one crime does not excuse the other, so to argue that it makes Israelis morally superior for not being worse is a damned idiotic arguement.
And you of course failed to answer the basic point: for all the press, this is one of this century's low intensity conflicts: the number of dead is not particualrly impressive, nor are any attacks on Israelis or palestinians record breaking.It is a safe bet to say that at most 1 or 2 of the top ten suicide attacks in terms of killed have being directed at Israelis, and certainly not near the top of that list. And the US and Russia ave caused far more "coolateral damage".
So to base ones opinions on the validity of the case of each side on body counts, or pictures of the dead is inane. Such arguements would be inane for far bloodiers conflicts as well.
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Generalissimo
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Haifa
Jan 2003
time: 05:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
I'm not the fanatic here. I am not the one denying the obvious truth. Israel is in violation of the Fourth Geneva convention and has been for over 30 years. Israel is also in violation of at least two UN security resolutions - not that they care - scum.
Israel is the country that treats its Arab minority like **** and only pushed for peace in the first place so that Israel would maintain a favoured ethnic mix - racist scum.
who support them. |
Welcome to the Middle East.
Arsehole.
EDIT:There bunch of other countries in the mid-east whose violating the 4th Geneva convention and probabaly some UN security resolutions(Syria is the first to come in mind).
Second,its well known fact through out the Mid-East that isreali pals have the best standarts of living among palestinians and other middle class arabs people.
You attack israel mainly becasue it perfectly fits your idealogy.
Last edited by Generalissimo on 01-02-2004 at 21:47
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Zylka
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Ahh, pogrom lingers
Ag - care to respond at all? Why are you living in an occupied "Canada"?
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:33
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I'll start my participation in this great thread by giving Generalissimo a dictionary, and giving Agathon some tissue to wipe that foam.
I think the first thing that people must know about the conflict is that it is NOT about race. I mean, I don't think that Agathon could spot an arab person in Israel. The jews and the arabs both come in different colours. It is, however, very much about stuff like culture, nationality, pride, etc. From my observation, the biggest racism in the middle east is actually targetting the far east. And this includes both Israel, and the muslim world. There ARE cases of racism, sure, but, generally, they don't target the other side of the conflict. It would be really stupid if it were so, considering the fact that the people here vary in colour shape, form and whatever.
for example, this gallery:
http://carnoe.aaahosting.net/Palest...lestinekids.htm
I am sorry, I am not sure which race am I supposed to hate. 
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31-01-2004 22:55
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