01-02-2004 23:03									#121
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What being jewish has to do with spouting comments that show ignorance of the topic?

	02-02-2004 02:52									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel I'll start my participation in this great thread by giving Generalissimo a dictionary, and giving Agathon some tissue to wipe that foam.

It's OK. I was being deliberately over the top in response to some of the previous comments.

quote: I think the first thing that people must know about the conflict is that it is NOT about race. I mean, I don't think that Agathon could spot an arab person in Israel.

From the point of view of Sharon, it is about race. He has long been a proponent of "Eretz Israel" and a supporter of the settlers - and they in my view are engaged in a form of ethnic cleansing.

Israeli Arabs have long been complaining about being treated as second class citizens - but that's not the main point. What is, is that Rabin entered the peace process in favour of partition because he knows that demographics are not on the side of the Jews. In ten years Jews will be in the minority in the current territories controlled by Israel.

Partition is desirable for this bunch because it ensures the survival of Israel as a "Jewish" state. I have problems with race based states in general (except under certain well defined circumstances) but that's not the pressing problem here. The best thing for all parties in my view would be complete withdrawal of Israel from all the occupied territories and a very limited right of return. Anything else is bound to create too much trouble. On the subject of a race based Israeli state, no one is going to quibble if it keeps the peace, even if the notion of a state based on race is repugnant. What does annoy people is when attempts to preserve racial purity cause harm. Of all peoples in the world, the Jews should know this better than anyone else - yet here we have Jews who are quite willing to become the thing they profess to hate. Thank God there are some who still get it - like that Rabbi who stopped the bulldozers the other week. Hurrah for him and all who walk with him!!!

One of the most shameful aspects of this business is the way that opponents of the occupation are painted as "self-hating Jews". For a culture whose relgious practice is constituted in part by intepretation and debate, this is a disgrace. In fact the real Jews are the ones committed to peace - the others have abandoned their history (another big no no in their culture) and sided with the oppressors over the oppressed (again, another big no no).

However, Sharon has made it clear that he isn't interested in a fair solution. What he wants is a West Bank that is turned into Balkanized Bantustans. This is not much different from South Africa in my view. Or he wants transfer, which would be a major crime against humanity.

Sharon is a racist. The minister that the Arabs killed a while back was a racist too. He referred to the Palestinians as lice, in a scary echo of what Nazi officials used to call Jews. Sharon has done almost everything he can to undermine peace and provoke extremism while at the same time trying to blame Arafat, whom he has reduced to an irrelevance in Palestinian circles.

Sharon and all the other Likudniks are racist scum. The fact that he and his ilk have managed to manipulate Israeli public opinion (in various ways) into direct conflict with the entire Jewish tradition, which is one of peace, tolerance and empathy with the underdog, is a disgrace. Shame on him.

I don't like the suicide bombings, but that doesn't mean that I automatically jump to the Likud view of things. I don't like bulldozing people's houses either, but that doesn't mean I have to support Hamas.

If only one of the bombers could get Sharon. He's a large and slow-moving target. I'd crack open a beer if they did.

	02-02-2004 03:14									#123
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The pity is that democratic countries like Israel and Russia can no longer use more efficient methods.

	02-02-2004 04:41									#124
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Suicide bombing is the culmination of 50 years of oppression. It's a cry for help, it's revenge, it's vengeance. It's young people who believe they have no future and no hope.

And the Zionists still don't get it?

Make a just PEACE now!

	02-02-2004 05:01									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Suicide bombing is the culmination of 50 years of oppression. It's a cry for help, it's revenge, it's vengeance. It's young people who believe they have no future and no hope. And the Zionists still don't get it? Make a just PEACE now!

Alexander's Horse. If one looks at Ghandi or Martin Luther King, there are better ways to resist. Civilized people must condemn what the terrorists are doing without reservation.

	02-02-2004 05:11									#126
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They are young people who have lost all hope for the future. Not much different from the Israeli kids they are killing and who are killing them.

It's obscene, the whole thing.

The Israelis and Pals should be able to share that land in peace.

Maybe it's up to the young people on both sides to break the cycle somehow.

	02-02-2004 05:24									#127
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What we need is a video game for the Israel-hating leftists to play. You are placed in command of Palestinian terrorists. You must recruit, plan and deploy homicide bombers into Israel. In the final stages of each mission, you play a homicide bomber who evades Israeli security and completes his or her mission by depressing the explosive-belt switch. After completing a successful mission you are treated to actual video of successful homicide missions from Israel showing in gleeful detail the mangled wreckage and bodies of Jewish scum.

Your strategic objectives are to prevent the leadership of the Palestinians from entering into a peace agreement with Israel. If you successfully destroy enough is Israeli civilians, you win the game when the European Union invokes severe economic sanctions against Israel for oppressing the Palestinian people thereby causing the Israelis to surrender to your organization.

	02-02-2004 05:30									#128
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Oh but Ned! All of the Israeli people are in violation of The Geneva Charter! Let's not forget the magnitude percentage of "refugees" who were actually BORN IN/have anything to do with current Israel!

Shame on you. How can you not look at the whole picture, and blankly condemn suicide bombings?? Racist, racist!

	02-02-2004 05:36									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Ned What we need is a video game for the Israel-hating leftists to play.

There aren't many of those Ned - there are more haters on the other side from what I see. But that's probably just my bias talking. Yes I have bias - so do you.

But haters on both sides should just back off and then maybe we'd get somewhere.

When you realise your enemy is your brother there is hope.

	02-02-2004 05:46									#130
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Agathon. Would be nice if you patronize the druggy with some form of answer, Mr. Philosophy degree

Have you seen the status of Native Americans in the Canada you currently occupy? Would you like to tell me what you're doing here - why our absolute destruction, displacement, and current s* treatment of the "rightful owners" is any different?

Why are you living here, buddy? What's the difference? Would things change if the beloved "Geneva Convention" were retroactive inclusive of a "crime" which dwarves Israel?

I hope you realise YOU'RE the supposed scum of a MUCH bigger issue. Glad to have you as a guest in our mockery of native sovereignty - you evasive a*sshole.

	02-02-2004 06:02									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon The emperor has no clothes. Every civilized country with a free press (i.e everywhere but the US) knows what is going on. Your government are scum and so are those who support them.

it's the US that doesn't have a free press?

	02-02-2004 06:05									#132
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quote: Originally posted by GePap This came up elsewhere. Yes, I read the thread: Another fact-given that the palestinian population we are talking about is smaller than the Israeli population (since Palestinians outside the territories are not counted), given that more Palestinian civilians have died than Israeli civlians it means the Israelis hav killed a larger portion of the Palestinian population than the Palestinians of the Israeli population- what does that tell you?

quote: As far saying : "The Israelis could have killed mroe Palestinian civlians but didn;t", that is a moronic arguements: in essence you would be saying "The Pals are war criminals! and see, the Israelis could be even worse war criminals than the Pals have been, but they haven't done it, so there!". Well, one crime does not excuse the other, so to argue that it makes Israelis morally superior for not being worse is a damned idiotic arguement.

YOU are making an utterly moronic argument. The POINT is that Israel exercises RESTRAINT and exerts at least a little effort to AVOID civilian casualties, whereas civilian casualties are the Palestinians' GOAL.

	02-02-2004 06:09									#133
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some Palestinians

	02-02-2004 06:09									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Suicide bombing is the culmination of 50 years of oppression. It's a cry for help, it's revenge, it's vengeance. It's young people who believe they have no future and no hope. And the Zionists still don't get it? Make a just PEACE now!

Maybe the Palestinians won't let them, maybe?

And how does one "crime" justify killing innocent civilians?

	02-02-2004 06:10									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse some Palestians

Duh. OBVIOUSLY we aren't talking about "each and every Palestinian", but rather the terror groups.

	02-02-2004 07:05									#136
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Given that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is characterised by low casualties and massive levels of propaganda, I'd say that it's clear that both sides have an overwhelming interest in keeping the conflict going.

It's a piece of geopolitical theatre.

	02-02-2004 08:44									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Yup, I saw this one. As disgusting as I found it to be, I was partly relieved that at least those people were defending their country against a deliberate invader.

I don't think the children on the bus were much of a defense against the deliberate invader and murderer.

	02-02-2004 08:52									#138
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Zylka don;t flatter yourself thinking I read what you posted. I stopped after the first line because you failed to answer to this simple fact: Pal casualties double that of Israelis. Maaaaaany more videos baby! Make no mistake I kinda like you and I know we disagree on this issue (o lord!!! the world will come tumbling down) but this is a very simple point. If blood is what we're counting here then the Pal one is double that of Israelis. If practices for how this is doen is what we're talking about then that's another matter. Anyway I much preferd you when you were writing weird threahds but my conscience doesn't allow me to mock someone who's taken interests in politics and the world around them agreeing or not.

I wonder what the ratio is when one removes friendly fire incidents from the picture. The Israelis tend to operate in Palestinian areas and have decent fire discipline and operate in formations in order to minimize the possibility of their shooting their own people. The Pals seem to be only organized in small groups, and when there is an incursion tend to form circular firing formations around the Israelis.

	02-02-2004 08:55									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion Would there still be suicide bombings if Israel stopped exisiting?

Of course there would be. The existence of the world is a humiliation for the Arabs.

	02-02-2004 09:07									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Suicide bombing is the culmination of 50 years of oppression. It's a cry for help, it's revenge, it's vengeance. It's young people who believe they have no future and no hope. And the Zionists still don't get it? Make a just PEACE now!

With whom, what? People who want to destroy your people and state? People who only want peace in order to prepare for the next war from a better postion?

	02-02-2004 10:02									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander With whom, what? People who want to destroy your people and state? People who only want peace in order to prepare for the next war from a better postion?

What you wrote applies very well to the Israelis if you know anything about the history since the 1940's - do some reading and then let's talk.

	02-02-2004 10:04									#142
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker

Brilliant counterarguement! Kudos! It deserves a pulitzer! Genius in its pure form!

NO, in reality, pathetic. Its called spinning the numbers. Agaion, what does it tell you about the underlying conflict that a higher proportion of the Palestinians population has been killed than the Israeli? Just as much as knowing that a greater percentage of Israelis killed are civlians than amopng the palestinians.

quote: YOU are making an utterly moronic argument. The POINT is that Israel exercises RESTRAINT and exerts at least a little effort to AVOID civilian casualties, whereas civilian casualties are the Palestinians' GOAL.

Ah, no. The point is that the distribution of power is such that the Israelis have the techonlogy to try to avoid too much colateral damage while the Palestinians are too weak to hit the IDF directly so they turn to attacking civilians. Suicide weaponms are the tools of the weak. If the palestinians had guided missiles and jet fighters and tanks they could be "nice" as well. They don't. The Palestinians attack civilians because they don't have the power in general to do otherwise.

	02-02-2004 10:07									#143
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Duh. OBVIOUSLY we aren't talking about "each and every Palestinian", but rather the terror groups.

I assume when you talk about terror groups you also include Jewish terror groups like The Stern Gang which terrorised Arab villages in the 1940's?

Interesting terror group that - at least 2 future Israeli Prime Ministers were associated with it.

If we're talking Middle East terror, Zionist terror groups wrote the book long, long ago.

	02-02-2004 10:10									#144
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quote: Brilliant counterarguement! Kudos! It deserves a pulitzer! Genius in its pure form! NO, in reality, pathetic. Its called spinning the numbers. Agaion, what does it tell you about the underlying conflict that a higher proportion of the Palestinians population has been killed than the Israeli? Just as much as knowing that a greater percentage of Israelis killed are civlians than amopng the palestinians.

No, the fact that a greater percentage of Palestinians are killed tells us two things - first, there are fewer Palestinians, and second, the Israelis are better at killing people. Neither of those indicts either side.

OTOH, the fact that a FAR greater percentage of Israelis killed are civilians than of Palestinians killed tells us one of two things: either the Palestinians are deliberately targetting civilians or they are expending less effort to avoid civilians casualties. We know the former to be true, but in fact either case shows that the Palestinians are worse than the Israelis.

	02-02-2004 10:12									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I assume when you talk about terror groups you also include Jewish terror groups like The Stern Gang which terrorised Arab villages in the 1940's? Interesting terror group that - at least 2 future Israeli Prime Ministers were associated with it. If we're talking Middle East terror, Zionist terror groups wrote the book long, long ago.

There are two sides - Israelis and Palestinians. Despite the fact that not ALL Israelis and not ALL Palestinians are involved, we use those terms because they are CONVENIENT.

	02-02-2004 10:13									#146
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quote: Ah, no. The point is that the distribution of power is such that the Israelis have the techonlogy to try to avoid too much colateral damage while the Palestinians are too weak to hit the IDF directly so they turn to attacking civilians. Suicide weaponms are the tools of the weak. If the palestinians had guided missiles and jet fighters and tanks they could be "nice" as well. They don't. The Palestinians attack civilians because they don't have the power in general to do otherwise.

So if you are mean to me, and you're bigger than me, it's OK for me to beat up your little brother to get back at you?

	02-02-2004 10:17									#147
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker There are two sides - Israelis and Palestinians. Despite the fact that not ALL Israelis and not ALL Palestinians are involved, we use those terms because they are CONVENIENT.

Convenient but misleading.

I happen to believe that there are people of goodwill on both sides and the majority of people be they Israeli or Palestinian want to live in peace with their neighbour.

	02-02-2004 10:20									#148
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker So if you are mean to me, and you're bigger than me, it's OK for me to beat up your little brother to get back at you?

Ah, what a wonderfuly mindless counterarguement!

But you must be of the "to understand is to condone" mentality.

Did I attach any value words? NO.

Do Palestinians terror organizations kill Israeli civilians becuase that is how they get their jollies? becuase they like drinking baby blood, or watching videos like this and high fiving? No. They view themslves as being in a war (as do the Israelis), but unlike Israel, they have no well equiped standing army capable to delivering a conventional knock out punch- so they turn to unconventional violence-aka, terrorist acts, which in theory break down the political will of the other side to wage the campaign (which is why ALL insurgencies or guerrila groups and so ofrth turn to terrorist attacks) and thus lea to eventual political victory.

Is this "right"? No. And given relaitve power, not only is it not morally condonable, but even in a cold minded amoral sense it is still idiotic becuase it will not deliver victory. But these groups will not accept Ghandian non-violence anymore than most people will.

	02-02-2004 10:22									#149
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quote: But you must be of the "to understand is to condone" mentality. Did I attach any value words? NO. Do Palestinians terror organizations kill Israeli civilians becuase that is how they get their jollies? becuase they like drinking baby blood, or watching videos like this and high fiving? No. They view themslves as being in a war (as do the Israelis), but unlike Israel, they have no well equiped standing army capable to delivering a conventional knock out punch- so they turn to unconventional violence-aka, terrorist acts, which in theory break down the political will of the other side to wage the campaign (which is why ALL insurgencies or guerrila groups and so ofrth turn to terrorist attacks) and thus lea to eventual political victory.

Well, sorry then. You sure sounded like you were justifying them, not explaining. And no, I don't think "to understand is to condone".

	02-02-2004 12:34									#150
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I think it's a little funny that North Americans and Europeans believe that they understand anything at all about the Palestinian mindset.