02-02-2004 17:00									#1
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quote: Greetings, Latino travellers from a distant realm. You have landed near Izzardia, welcome to our continent. Our diplomatic affairs are handled by Arrian - who's not around till tomorrow. I can recieve communications in the meantime. We hope you had a pleasant journey and look forward to cordial relations with your fine civ. Regards Cort Haus on behalf of The Izzardians.

Hopefully that doesn't give anything away, not even the name of our continent. If we say 'Comedia' and Python say that too it might send signals.

Their arrival is worrying - Monkey might screech to them for help. Perhaps we should try and keep them north for a few turns. Perhaps their boat went south round the coast, or maybe it came from that way. They don't have contact with Python or Monkey yet.

	03-02-2004 03:51									#2
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We can try, but I doubt we can prevent them from meeting Monkey before we wipe Monkey out. It's now quite likely that Monkey will find refuge elsewhere, since if LL has the option of saving them, I would imagine they will in order to have a vassal.

Perhaps we SHOULD mention Python, and give LL a "friendly suggestion" that sailing north with their galley is the most profitable route.

-Arrian

	03-02-2004 05:38									#3
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quote: Greetings fellow Izzardians! It is an honor to finally meet your fine civilization and to begin having contact and communication among our beautiful continents. We are confident that this will mark the start of an excellent relationship between our teams. We are interested in any trade possibilities that may exist, we will contact Arrian later on. Best regards! Master Zen -Diplomatic Sexy Mother****** of the Latin Lovers.

Yes, it might be worth suggesting they sail north to meet the Pythons.

	03-02-2004 22:06									#4
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Draft message to MZ:

quote: MZ, Hola from Izzardia! Cake or Death? I'd suggest the Cake, it's actually quite nice and it appears we have 1 piece left. Don't be confused by our crossdressing. Transvestites fancy girls. Male Lesbian is where the sexuality is. (Note: To those completely unfamiliary with the comedy of Eddie Izzard, I know this will sound really odd. Just roll with it, ok?) Right, now that we've cleared that up, on to more serious business. First off, obviously we expect that your warrior will respect Izzardian territory. Stay out of our borders, and everything will be just peachy. Second, I'd like to discuss trading, divided into 3 categories: 1) Technology. 2) Maps. 3) Contacts (if any). In the first category, we have republic available for trade. Care to make an offer? At this time, CoD would require an NDA on such a trade, because we researched republic at full price, and have no desire to see it brokered around by a third party. Map trading: My team needs to discuss this more, so I don't have a policy on this yet. What does your team want to do? Contacts: I'm willing to tell you how many teams we know other than LL if you are willing to reciprocate. If we exchange that info, it will help with map trading, and possibly technology trading. Finally, I would like to know if your team is open to trades of more than just tech, money, maps and contacts. Would you, for instance, be interested in a trade that involved receiving technology in exchange for a promise not to undertake a certain action, or a set of actions? -Arrian, Executive Transvestite of Team Cake or Death?

That took me a while. What do you guys think?

-Arrian

	03-02-2004 22:07									#5
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Regarding suggesting they sail north, the problem is that they can move their warrior one way and the galley in the other. In fact, I assume they will.

How can we convince them to sail north and walk south, without it being obvious that it's in OUR interests they do so, not theirs?

I'm stumped.

-Arrian

	03-02-2004 22:34									#6
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The problem with moving the galley north is that we don't know what's in the galley. If it's not a suicide run they could have a second unit onboard surveying our naked cities.

The trading talks structure was good, and the last question does need to be asked at some point. My only concern is that it might telegraph intent if asked too soon. I think we will have to pay them not to intervene in the approaching conflict, without them knowing too soon. A key matter is whether they got here by 'suicide' run or not. If we now say "look, us and Python are about to jump another civ - here's a payoff offer" that might give them time to plan an intervention. A diplomatic intervention would be even easier - they could warn Monkey immediately.

How about holding back on the last question for a while. FP can check the coast to see if the galley is coming south. Python can tell us if it's going North. We should have some time before they meet Monkey - hopefully we can buddy up to LL in advance of that. I expect, though, that LL will want to meet all Civs on this continent before comitting to trades.

	03-02-2004 22:35									#7
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I've been trying to work out what contact with us does to the research cost of republic if LL were to research it.

From the thread on tech devaluation in the conquests forum (and elsewhere, I’ve seen it before):

quote: Research Cost = [MM * [10*COST * (1 - N/[CL*1.75])]/(CF * 10)] - Research done so far Research Cost and research done so far are in gold. Square brackets indicate truncation /rounddown MM = map modifier(tech rate on world sizes tab in the editor) Tiny 160 Small 200 Standard 240 Large 320 Huge 400 CF = AI cost factor(as on the difficulty tab in the editor) For the purposes of the research cost formula, CF has a maximum value of 10. Chieftain 10 Warlord 10 Regent 10 Monarch 9 Emperor 8 Deity 6 COST = technology cost as on the civilization advances tab in the editor. N = number of civs on the diplomacy screen that have discovered the tech. CL = number of civs left in the game

240*10*28* (1-1/7) - rounded down / 10.

So, essentially 672* (1-1/7). The question is how exactly does the rounding work?

1-1/7 = .857 (there's more, of course, but I'm assuming it doesn't go out that far).

Do we use .857, .85 or .8?

The beaker costs would be:

575.9
571.2
537.6

respectively. I assume those would be rounded down as well.

-Arrian

	03-02-2004 22:42									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus The problem with moving the galley north is that we don't know what's in the galley. If it's not a suicide run they could have a second unit onboard surveying our naked cities. The trading talks structure was good, and the last question does need to be asked at some point. My only concern is that it might telegraph intent if asked too soon. I think we will have to pay them not to intervene in the approaching conflict, without them knowing too soon. A key matter is whether they got here by 'suicide' run or not. If we now say "look, us and Python are about to jump another civ - here's a payoff offer" that might give them time to plan an intervention. A diplomatic intervention would be even easier - they could warn Monkey immediately. How about holding back on the last question for a while. FP can check the coast to see if the galley is coming south. Python can tell us if it's going North. We should have some time before they meet Monkey - hopefully we can buddy up to LL in advance of that. I expect, though, that LL will want to meet all Civs on this continent before comitting to trades.

If the galley moves north, it will be quite some time before it comes around to Burundy. So I'm not too worried about that. It's something to think about if Python tells us they're coming north, obviously.

I too am worried about telegraphing our intent. My primary worry, however, is that LL will make contact with Monkey before we've had a chance to cut a deal to keep LL from saving Monkey. I agree with holding off on the final question for a bit, though.

Tech trading is a bit of a problem too. I mentioned republic, but if they do some investigation, they should note a drop in the cost of Literature, which I did not mention, specifically because we cannot trade it - Monkey researched it. I know we're about to invade Monkey, but personally I would hold to our deal and not trade Literature, until we destroy Monkey. Maybe I'm taking this too far... let me know what you think.

-Arrian

	03-02-2004 23:04									#9
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I agree we shouldn't mention literature yet, which reminds me that we need to check Construction and Polytheism for devaluation. I also agree in not trading it, though I expect Sir Ralph would have have no such qualms about Python doing it.

When I plugged the numbers into the formula I got 614, while 1 civs knows it. In fact, they'll know 2 civs with it very soon when they meet Python. Full cost is 672, so that looks about right.

I think you omitted to multiply the CL value (7) by 1.75. I'll post my full working in minute ...

	03-02-2004 23:10									#10
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MM=240
COST = 28
N=1
CL=7
CF=10

= ([240 * [10 * 28 * (1 - (1/[7 * 1.75])]) / 10 * 10

= (240 * [280 * (1-(1/12)]) / 100

= (240 * [280 * 0.916]) / 100

= (240 * 256) / 100

= 614

that should be it, give or take the odd bracket. Next, when N=2.

	03-02-2004 23:13									#11
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N = 2

= ([240 * [10 * 28 * (1 - (2/[7 * 1.75])]) / 10 * 10

= (240 * [280 * (1-(2/12)]) / 100

= (240 * [280 * 0.833]) / 100

= (240 * 233) / 100

= 559

	03-02-2004 23:30									#12
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Doh! Forgot 1.75, like you said.

I see now.

614. Still quite pricey. Good. Python don't have it yet, and Monkey won't be getting it unless they cough up a bunch of cash.

-Arrian

	03-02-2004 23:56									#13
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Python do have it, I'm sure.

	04-02-2004 00:23									#14
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Oh, we gave them republic already? I thought we held off because they didn't want to switch out of despotism yet.

-Arrian

	04-02-2004 00:26									#15
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The turn has gone to LL. How odd is the turn order, by the way:

Python -> Monkey -> LL -> CoD. Our "known world" plays straight in a row.

Let's definitely check the tech cost of Construction & Polytheism for devaluation when we get the save.

Also, if their galley went south, we should be able to see it with our scout.

-Arrian

	04-02-2004 00:30									#16
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Oh, and let's check on the price of establishing an embassy with LL (to the extent that they haven't already established one with us).

It might not be within our means, but then again it might. We need 560 gold for our upgrades (12 warriors, 4 chariots).

edit: last turn we had 515 gold, with +58gpt. Due to unit builds and Izz's pop fluctuations, the gpt number will rise and fall (falling a bit more than it rises), but I think it's fair to say that we can afford an embassy with LL.

-Arrian

Last edited by Arrian on 04-02-2004 at 00:35

	04-02-2004 03:23									#17
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Yes, an embassy might help indicate how close they are. Also, if they establish an embassy now, they'll see our 100% tax ans assume a mass upgrade is at hand.

	04-02-2004 03:29									#18
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this came with the save :

quote: We are offering Polytheism, right now We prefer gold. Hope our diplomats join soon ;-)

Sounds like they want cash for Polytheism. I doubt we're up for that.

	04-02-2004 07:26									#19
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SENT to Master Zen:

quote: MZ & Team Latin Lover, Hola from Izzardia! Cake or Death? I'd suggest the Cake, it's actually quite nice and it appears we have 1 piece left. Don't be confused by our crossdressing. Transvestites fancy girls. Male Lesbian is where the sexuality is. (Note: To those completely unfamiliar with the comedy of Eddie Izzard, I know this will sound really odd. Just roll with it, ok?) Right, now that we've cleared that up, on to more serious business. You will note that your warrior now has some more company. I'm afraid we can't just let your warrior wander about, since we are REXing into that area. Care to discuss map trading? Second, thank you for your offer of Polytheism. We are not currently interested in paying gold for it. We are, however, interested in trading you the Republic in exchange for Polytheism + gold. We established an embassy with you this turn as well. Since you have 9 gold right now, obviously a Polytheism + gold trade isn't immediately doable. But perhaps it is in the future? -Arrian

	05-02-2004 22:43									#20
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When it comes to trying to pre-empt LL interference by offering them something, it may be worth reminding them that Monkey's roleplay requires them to oppose all deforestation and jungle-clearing operations.

	05-02-2004 23:37									#21
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Bah, that's just roleplay, nothing serious. It's not going to help us.

-Arrian

	09-02-2004 19:19									#22
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From MZ, and my response:

quote: Greetings to the Cakeordeathinas...err... Izzardians... whatever First of all, rest assured that we will promptly remove our warrior from your claimed land. We are interested in perhaps establishing a tech trade. Currently we already have a deal for Republic but we will soon have Construction so perhaps we can offer Construction+Polytheim (32) for a medieval tech (Feud and Chivalry are both 32). As for map trading, we are currently discussing this in our forum. Btw, apologies for not being familiar with the work of Mr. Izzard, however it seems that we being womenizers and you being transvestites, we do have a thing in common: women, in our case wanting them, in your case being them Cheers -MZ

...

quote: MZ, No, no, no. We just dress like 'em. Beware the 1st battalion, Transvestite Brigade, though! Removing your warrior will be appreciated, of course. I hope you understood our (startled) reaction to his appearance. When last I saw a screenshot (probably 1-2 turns ago now), he was standing on a planned city site. I understand about the tech situation. We have a deal of sorts too, which would get us Construction in exchange for Polytheism and credits from prior tech deals. Perhaps we can look forward to cooperation in the next age, once we get clear of current deals. -Arrian

	09-02-2004 19:24									#23
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Another message to MZ:

quote: MZ, One more thing. I've seen the latest screenies, and it seems you have moved your galley back northward to pick up your warrior. That being the case, in the spirit of friendship, I suggest you continue north with that galley, as that is the quickest way for you to make contact with another civ. Congrats if you are one of the civs to have reached the middle ages this past turn (we've seen the barb uprisings). -Arrian

	10-02-2004 19:22									#24
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There was a note from LL in the last turn's save. I sent a short acknowledgement.

quote: Subject: PTWDG II, 650 BC > We don't understand this hostility. We were first invited to know your > women, but everywhere our warrior go with this in mind he find lots > of ugly men with an horrible clothes mounted in menacing chariots > > I'm sad our relationships began so bad. Maybe a future pact could be > done. What about medieval techs? We could give Poly to you right now, > and you give us some tech of your election at the future. We could pay > 12gold for each science point of difference. > > PS: We will also have construction in 2 turns No menace intended, we are protecting you from the barbarians! On the tech, I believe our diplomats have exchanged messages on this subject - hopefully we can deal in the future.

	10-02-2004 21:14									#25
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Message from MZ, and my response:

quote: Arrian, Thank you very much for this info, I shall relay it back to the team We will look forward to further collaboration in the medieval era, in the meantime, may the spirit of frienship prevail among our naughty empires -MZ Minister of Sexu...err... Foreign Relations

...

quote: MZ, Excellent, we look forward to wheeling and dealing in the next age. I noticed we got this via email with the save: quote: We don't understand this hostility. We were first invited to know your women, but everywhere our warrior go with this in mind he find lots of ugly men with an horrible clothes mounted in menacing chariots I'm sad our relationships began so bad. Maybe a future pact could be done. What about medieval techs? We could give Poly to you right now, and you give us some tech of your election at the future. We could pay 12gold for each science point of difference. PS: We will also have construction in 2 turns I hope you can explain to your teamates that, while we perhaps were overcautious, our intent was not hostile. It just isn't prudent to have someone's warrior roaming around an area where settlers are being sent. Also, we just met you, and good relations don't typically happen overnight. -Arrian

	10-02-2004 21:46									#26
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We might consider offering to buy construction or polythesim on credit for future tech. If we get credit, they're less likely to help Monkey and risk us ripping up the deal in revenge.

	12-02-2004 00:25									#27
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Response by MZ to my last note:

quote: err... don't mind that message, most of our guys don't have much experience with demo game diplomacy and thought that you were "threatening" our warrior. must...teach them.... the way.... (the evil way).... so don't worry, no hard feelings on our side -MZ

Heh.

	12-02-2004 06:15									#28
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Arrian, what did you think about the idea of getting tech credit off LL to dissuade them from the idea of helpping Monkey?

	12-02-2004 19:08									#29
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Not a bad idea al all, Cort. I was going to hold off for a bit, especially if LL sent their galley north like we suggested.

Then again, perhaps delay is bad. Sorry, I've been a bit off the last couple of days.

I was thinking of researching polytheism ourselves (4 turns) and buying Construction, using the fact that we can get Construction almost free in 20 turns as leverage for a good deal (IIRC, the deal with Python was something like Polytheism+WC+HBR+4 points they still owe us from the republic <-> math+currency deal).

I will ponder that some more. Perhaps the best thing would be for me to catch MZ in a chat and explore a variety of possibilities with him, sorta informally. Hmm...

-Arrian

	14-02-2004 19:07									#30
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I wonder - would LL prefer 3 smaller Civs on Comedia, each weaker but all needing more land, or two stronger Civs but with sufficient land and not requiring off-shore expansion? These are the war aims, after all.

They might see it either way - we should be ready to convince them of the latter.