02-02-2004 23:32									#61
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from a STANFORD UNIVERSITY WEBSITE
http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/...ss/marxism.html

quote: Under capitalism, capitalist ideology penetrates other classes and must be struggled against by the proletariat.

Even your commie hero KARL MARX describes capitalism as an ideology...

CHE YOU ARE WRONG

http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/...s/ideology.html
here is an expanded discussion about IDEOLOGY for you dopes!

	02-02-2004 23:34									#62
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But were people aware of what capitalism was before Marx wrote Das Kapital? When was the first time the word 'Capitalism' was used? I don't think Adam Smith ever used it, and he was anti-mercantilist. So capitalism is a term used to explain the Marxist ideology.

	02-02-2004 23:39									#63
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"Under capitalism, capitalist ideology penetrates other classes and must be struggled against by the proletariat."

Che would know better then I, but I'd assume by "Capitalist Ideology" he would mean various ideologies that promote what he'd call false consciuousness, such as nationalism, religious conservaitsm etc., rather then capitalism itself.

	02-02-2004 23:39									#64
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Actually that's the very basis of capitalism.

No it isn't. You make the same mistake libertarians make, looking at capitalism today and assuming it has always been that way. Capitalism existed before people were even aware that it was something distinct.

Adam Smith did not invent capitalism. He did two things. He described the economic system that had come into being in England, and described methods of making it work better. This is not an ideology any more than an book about cars and making cars is an ideology.

Most early capitalists had a very different set of ideas about the nature of men. They assumed that hard work and thrift and moral virture rewarded better men. They had no view of men as inherently greedy. Nor did they care. Smith doesn't even talk about greed. He talks about self-interest, which is a different thing from greed. Even Marx considers greed irrelevent as a motivating force in capitalism.

	02-02-2004 23:40									#65
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WOW, WHEN YOU USE ALL CAPS AND LARGE LETTERS, IT REALLY MAKES YOUR ARGUMENT MORE SOUND!

	02-02-2004 23:40									#66
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara #1, Nazis are fascists. They called themsevles fascists.

Did I explicitly state that nazist wheren't fascists? That's has hardly anything to do with the point at all. The point is that some persons use the term fascists instead of the much more common term nazis.

quote: #2a, calling right-wing authoritarians fascists extends far beyond Marxists. It is common for both liberals and conservatives to hurl that epithet at each other, and has been ever since fascism was created by Mussolini.

I did not in any way claim that liberals or conservatives don't hurl epithets at each other, simply that the over-use of the term fascist mainly is found amoung communists and radical socialists.

quote: #2b, The "laws" of dialectics have absolutely nothing to do with this. The laws of dialectics are: quality v quantity, the negation of the negation, and one more thing which escapes me.

Nor did I claim that it made any sence. It would hardly be a suprise for most people that commie fantatics of the sort that bend over backwards in their efforts to make the party-line (often a lot more pragmatic) fit their narrow world view will end with absurd logics. "Die partei sind immer rechts", or whatever we could call it.

	02-02-2004 23:43									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Sava from a STANFORD UNIVERSITY WEBSITE http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/...ss/marxism.html Even your commie hero KARL MARX describes capitalism as an ideology...

I hate to break it to you, but that wasn't written by Marx. It also contains several errors.

	02-02-2004 23:49									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Did I explicitly state that nazist wheren't fascists?

You imply they aren't fascists when you make this statement:

quote: Some lefties did and do call nazis for fascist in this fashion.

quote: I did not in any way claim that liberals or conservatives don't hurl epithets at each other, simply that the over-use of the term fascist mainly is found amoung communists and radical socialists.

And I am saying this is wrong. It is a common insult outside of the far-left, and therefore is neither the fault of the left nor a defining feature of the insult.

quote: It would hardly be a suprise for most people that commie fantatics of the sort that bend over backwards in their efforts to make the party-line (often a lot more pragmatic) fit their narrow world view will end with absurd logics.

Which has nothing to do with dialectics.

	03-02-2004 00:07									#69
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well I'm done with this inane threadjack... I'm disappointed at the ignorance I've seen and can't bear to subject myself to the aggravation of trying to open people's eyes.

If you want Che, go visit the Stanford websites and LEARN. You won't listen to me, maybe you'll listen to them. One last question I have... if capitalism isn't an ideology, then why is it described "as an ideology"?

	03-02-2004 00:08									#70
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quote: You imply they aren't fascists when you make this statement

Well, that's your interpetation. That was not at all the point. Even if there's room for a lengthy discussion about to what the degree the NSDAP was a fascist party.

quote: And I am saying this is wrong. It is a common insult outside of the far-left, and therefore is neither the fault of the left nor a defining feature of the insult.

It's my understanding that the over-use of the word fascist is much more common amongst socialists. In my original post I said that communists/socialists "Partly, at least,.." was responible for the use of the ephitiet in unsuitable situations. You're clearly making a hen out of a feather. I have certainly not stated what you accuse me off.

quote: Which has nothing to do with dialectics.

I'm not really arguing about it has or hasn't anything to do with diamat. I just pointed out that I've read quite a few texts where people have tried to fit in fascism into diamat. I don't really care.

	03-02-2004 00:14									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Sava If you want Che, go visit the Stanford websites and LEARN.

I did visit the Stanford website. It seems to me that reading a student's ex-comp sci professor's ("I am a professor of computer science (now emeritus) at Stanford University and this web site is a spare time activity that I hope will do some good.") interpretation of things isn't a terribly good way to learn. As I pointed out before, upon going through it, I notived several errors in their description. Really Sava, try and vet your "proofs" before showing them.

quote: One last question I have... if capitalism isn't an ideology, then why is it described "as an ideology"?

Like I care what the libertarians call capitalism. They've redefined the term to suit their own agenda.

	03-02-2004 00:21									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Well, that's your interpetation. That was not at all the point.

It's what you wrote.

quote: Even if there's room for a lengthy discussion about to what the degree the NSDAP was a fascist party.

What room would there be? It fits every definition of fascist. It's like saying the People's Party of Bum****istan isn't a communist party cuz it doesn't use the word communist in its name.

quote: It's my understanding that the over-use of the word fascist is much more common amongst socialists.

Maybe in Sweden, not where I'm from.

quote: I'm not really arguing about it has or hasn't anything to do with diamat.

You said it was because of dialectics. That is arguing it has semomthing to do with dialectis. Dialectics is the logic of change, nothing more. You can't make anything do anything with dialectics. Dialectics proves nothing. It is not a formula. It is simply a way of undertanding that things change over time and how.

	03-02-2004 00:42									#73
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I said that some communists use the term fascists for whom most others use the term nazis. That those groups use different terms for the same thing doesn't mean that they differ in their perception of the ideology of the NSDAP. Your interpetation is questionable.

Another mature remark. There's obviously room for debate over to what degree the nazi regime, the nazi movement and/or the nazi ideology was fascist. There has been a lot of scholary debate about the definitions of fascism and nazism. The nazis didn't show much interest for the corporative ideas from the italian fascists for example. But that goes for Mussolinis Italy also. Regimes hardly ever do what their ideologies aim for. Or maybe you're of the opinion that the Soviet union was true communism?

Well, doh. I haven't made field research about the political terms used in Jacksonville. Obviously that means that I must be a moron.

	03-02-2004 01:38									#74
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IIRC The early Soviet Union refered to the Social Democratic movements they loathed so much as "Social Fascists"

	03-02-2004 02:07									#75
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It seems to me that Fascists are a cross bread between center-Left social Democracy and Extreme Right-wing nationalism. Henmce why they piss both sides off.

It is interesting to note that the German Aristocrats of the 1930;s hated Hitler and the Nazi's largley because they saw them as lefties.

	03-02-2004 02:07									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin I said that some communists use the term fascists for whom most others use the term nazis.

Then this is no point at all. Why even bring it up? That's like saying some people say Scandinavian when others say Swede.

quote: That those groups use different terms for the same thing doesn't mean that they differ in their perception of the ideology of the NSDAP.

You wrote your sentence in such a way that the only way it could be interpreted as if you meant that fascists and nazis are two different things. It is not my fault you meant something other than you wrote and then continued to defend it. All nazis are fascists, so there is no reason not to use the two terms interchangably.

quote: There's obviously room for debate over to what degree the nazi regime, the nazi movement and/or the nazi ideology was fascist.

Superficial debate, maybe. I don't think it's all that worthwhile debating the rhetorical differences between the Nazis and the Fascists.

quote: The nazis didn't show much interest for the corporative ideas from the italian fascists for example. But that goes for Mussolinis Italy also.

As I said, form versus essense. One could just as easily say that a red car isn't the same as a blue car, because it's red. Too many scholars get hung up on the trappings of the specific regimes, and don't look at what the actual substance of the systems were.

quote: Well, doh. I haven't made field research about the political terms used in Jacksonville. Obviously that means that I must be a moron.

I mean the USA. And I didn't say you were a moron. I said your statement was utter crap, because it relied on two untrue positions.

Shi,
You are correct. The Stalinist definition of fascism has more to do with whatever policy the USSR had at the time than any actual study of fascism. I think, however, that the spread of the term fascist as a general insult can be traced more to the counter-culture of the 1960s, who hurled it at police, soldier, and politician alike.

	03-02-2004 02:09									#77
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I wrote a 40 page essay on Fascism, locked away in my archives, too lazy to get it....

	03-02-2004 02:11									#78
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title: "my life"

	03-02-2004 02:17									#79
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No Ec, that was copyrighted.

	03-02-2004 02:19									#80
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Titles can't be copywritten.

	03-02-2004 02:20									#81
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Hmm... I think I'll write a book Harry Potter and the Sorcerors Stone then......

	03-02-2004 02:22									#82
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my point was Thorn wrote a book about fascism called "my life" because he's a fascist, does noone get my humour nowadays?

plus, the title you refer to is "my struggle"

	03-02-2004 02:22									#83
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'Larry Twatter and the Sorcerors Balls'

	03-02-2004 02:25									#84
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Mein Kampf, ja klar!

	03-02-2004 02:27									#85
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ja, stimmt

	03-02-2004 02:30									#86
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Mein soapen in myner bathtuben ist nicht gut, ich bin clean nicht?

	03-02-2004 02:30									#87
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Facism doesn't nessecarily have to be associated with attrocities of violence, Just like Communism doesn't have to be associated with authoritarian rule.

Facism in is conceptuel form can exist without atrocities. It just happens that the people in charge modified fascism to suit their goals in all the real world examples (one of the systems main flaws), not unlike what some Soviet and Chinese leaders did.

	03-02-2004 02:32									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Facism doesn't nessecarily have to be associated with attrocities of violence,

Given that fascism glorifies violence and is based partly on the writings of Sorel (an advocate of violence), I would beg to differ. Violence is an intimate and integral part of fascist ideology.

	03-02-2004 02:35									#89
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"Violence is an intimate and integral part of fascist ideology."

I agree. You will find a form of fascist organisation within British council estates.

	03-02-2004 02:36									#90
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Shut up, fascist.