03-02-2004 18:31									#1
	Turn 169 : 540 AD Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Physics in 3 turns.

Blizzard hits size 7 but needs a harbor before library for growth.

Inchoff now at size 6, aqua in 7 but no food. Needs harbor after aqua, could irrigate now too when wrkrs avail

	03-02-2004 19:06									#2
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Cyclone builds Worker, order another
Sandstorm builds Worker, order another & set WF to +4fpt, + 3 spt for two turns

Cyclone wrkr to forest - wait
Sandstorm worker toward Blizzard
5 workers jion fortress build at Diss-1
6 galleys move south. they can disband in OG (probably) or WW next turn
Sea wall shuffles to move several of our Knights north to Eliopolis.
Cats also shuffled north-west
Shuffle Wf in Santa Ana & Blizzard to give Blizzard +2fpt, then add settler for size 9.
Blizzard : Switch lib to harbor? Harbor allows extra 2 growth = 6 commerce with some corruption.
Lib will give extra 5 science (and culture) at 70%, so stick with lib.
2 workers from Blizzard irrigate Bl-8. They can do Bl-7 next and add to city, then build harbour after lib, use sea tiles and give grass to Santa Ana

Physics in 3 turns, 600g, -72gpt
2nd in Pop, GNP,Mfg,Lit,Income,Productivity

	03-02-2004 19:12									#3
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Turn sent.

	03-02-2004 19:25									#4
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Should we re-plan our timeline to get to Scientific Method? I know we finish Physics turn 172, get Metallurgy from GoW around turn 172 or 173, and research Magnetism ourselves by turn 177? What's the anticipated rate there. Then we have 3 techs prior to SM. I vaguely remember reading somewhere recently about a potential deal for medicine, although I've not been able to find anything in the contact logs. ISTM that our timeline to ToE has shrunk somewhat - how does this affect our prebuild plans.

NB I just noticed in the logs mentioning to RP about giving them bolderberg for a turn to trigger their GA if we build Magellan's there. The check to trigger their GA will only be made once they finish a wonder of their own, whilst owning Bolderberg. Are there any obsolete wonders they could go for for this?

I've also been updating the trade thread - but may well have got some of the details wrong. Our tech deals with the trustworthy allies GoW seem to be getting quite involved. If anyone spots some mistakes, feel free to edit them into a more correct state.

	03-02-2004 19:39									#5
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The revised timeline for Sci Meth was assessed on the T168 thread here .

I'll post the T162 plan and the T168 revision on the Smith's thread so we know where they are.

The bottom line is 45 turns to Sci Meth, and start ToE prebuild immediately after Newtons in Tempest.

Nothing was discussed with our good, reliable, trustworthy and honourable allies the GoW about next era trades. After all, they might not be around by then.

RP can build the Oracle for their other half of the GA. I didn't get a reply about that.

	03-02-2004 20:01									#6
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Vulture, I've added a note on the trade thread that you might want to edit into the main post.

	03-02-2004 20:22									#7
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I don't get the save, so I can't look at F4 to see any details on our second lux deal with ND - could someone put them in sometmie please.

And in case you didn't know - anyone can edit anyone else's messages on a private forum, so feel free to put in details yourself if you think something needs to be changed.

	03-02-2004 21:17									#8
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CH, please mention to RP that they stop building units, and do markets instead... they're wasting gold over there, which our alliance might need later on.

DeepO

	03-02-2004 21:53									#9
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I'm not sure if they want to do that, but we could suggest it again. I mentioned it in a message (same as the one that mentioned Magellans) but didn't get a reply. I agree there is a commercial case for it, but their sense of sovereignty is important, whether we like it or not.

At some point in the future we will need to pick up again on units to start building our post-marines defenses. Also, if RP replace all our units, that will free up probabaly all of our Knights in case someone wants to, er, hire us to upgrade to Cav (providing requisite tech and resource) for a possible pre-infantry adventure. Who knows?

	03-02-2004 22:18									#10
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It's not that much the upkeep of units I'm worried about, it's the delay in building markets that is costing a lot of cash.

But I agree, their sense of sovereignty might need it. If it would be possible, I would give them some WCs or something, so they don't waste time building them

DeepO

	03-02-2004 23:27									#11
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Yes, we could suggest that - say to them "feel free to delay unit production till after some markets if you want. "

	03-02-2004 23:52									#12
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Just a thought - if Lego get Magellan that's better news than GoW/ND having it. Unless Lego suddenly get a taste for domination. I'm assuming that Lego got Nav for the wonder - unless they wanted an ocean lookout - possible. If they did get it for the wonder, they're bound to beat our longshot bid.

	03-02-2004 23:55									#13
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Another thought on Lego wonders : what if their 'Sistine' is a Smith's prebuild?

	04-02-2004 02:00									#14
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Very likely that Sistine is only a prebuild, unless one of the teams didn't agree to let them have it.

Ok, seeing as we had a lot of discussion in public on similar things, I have to bring this up: lending Magellan's to start RP's GA, would that be an exploit, or not? We can't ask this in public, as similar to the cat swap it can be largely hidden from the other teams if Lego isn't paying attention.

DeepO

	04-02-2004 02:01									#15
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Well to me, if they did that I would use our prebuild to make sistines and say they abused the deal. Their not building it all this time and using it as a hammer is under handed. To me that relieves everyone of any obligation. They were given their shot at building it.

	04-02-2004 02:14									#16
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I think we goofed on the deal, we didn't notice this at the time. We should have made a deal where they were given a 40 turn period during which they had the sole right to build it, after which it was free for all to build. My guess is that they had this planned since the beginning, to use it as a prebuild for the late medeival wonders, instead of the early ones...

DeepO

	04-02-2004 02:51									#17
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Yeah, I wonder if they meant it to work out this way, or it just happened to turn out like this.

If we built sistine, what's the worst that could happen? We don't have good trades with lego anyway....

I say, if they switch builds this time, we build it. screw 'em.

	04-02-2004 04:51									#18
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Can't do that, sleepy, as it would be a sure public disaster... us truely breaking a deal, not simply bending it's content (even if I still don't agree we broke the GoW NAP)

Any remarks on the Magellan lending being an exploit?

DeepO

	04-02-2004 04:53									#19
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I mean, I don't think it is an issue, as we could also do a fake war to start their GA... same effect, but I'm sure Lego and Vox would do it if we snatched all their wonders somehow

DeepO

	04-02-2004 05:11									#20
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It's possible that some teams wil cry 'foul' to wonder-lending, I suppose we should think about it.

Meanwhile - here's a PM from Arnelos (got one back from Togas earlier - see log) about Magellan.

quote: Could you clarify the background on this? When is Magellan's going to be completed? What city? Could you clarify when and for how long you intend to perhaps lend the city in which it resides? More importantly, what do YOU believe you have to gain by lending it to us? I'm not quite clear on the point. Lay out the full argument for us. Thanks. - Arnelos

I answered the first point to Togas. For the second, the answer is basically that we'd like a share of the spoils in gold, and that we're working on the basis that GS and RP do what they can for each other for the mutual benefit of the alliance.

	04-02-2004 08:47									#21
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Maybe my values are suspect, but I don't care what th deal was, if they continue to abuse it they should not cry about us putting a stop to it (Sistine). I would serve notice in the public forum that we are not going to take any more delay. Build it or all bets are off.

I would say that a we should get a clarification on the wonder swap idea. If people feel it is fair or if they don't think we should do it. I would be inclined to go along if they felt is was not proper.

	04-02-2004 18:25									#22
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delete : wrong thread