04-02-2004 04:13									#1
	"Pulling a GS" for CGN Full PM-box? Change here!

Miccofl has approached me and asked if Apolyton would be willing to accept CGN's front-line cities in case it looks as though they won't be able to hold them. I told him that I would take it back to the team to discuss.

He also mentioned that "our damaged units would of course teleport back to Arhus for healing and redeployment."

What does everyone think of this? I should have a response ready for him sometime in the near future (after all, with Ansar the front could move quickly and the threat grow quite fast).

	04-02-2004 04:17									#2
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No. GWT will most likely take them no matter what. The closest parallel we have is how ND acted when RP gifted cities away.

They won't fall for it. If we want to turn this into a full blown war, hit their galley and be done with it.

	04-02-2004 04:20									#3
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Personally, I think this is a fantastic idea. GCA and GWT have already used a MASSIVE unit warp, so they have little grounds on which to complain about its use.

Us accepting the frontline CGN cities means that GWT will need to either bypass them while passing through non-friendly territory (can't use roads), or attack us and grant us the WW bonus (while taking a WW hit themselves).

Quite frankly, if GWT/GCA didn't want to open this door, they shouldn't have used an absolutely massive unit warp of troops from GCA on our continent to the city "Welcome" on GWT's continent.

That said, if our team is strongly against it, we'll just have to volunteer to keep our hands tied behind our back while Mongoose let's GWT and GCA do it.

	04-02-2004 04:21									#4
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit No. GWT will most likely take them no matter what. The closest parallel we have is how ND acted when RP gifted cities away. They won't fall for it. If we want to turn this into a full blown war, hit their galley and be done with it.

Might as well make them take the WW hit rather than us.

	04-02-2004 04:27									#5
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I say do it.

It will help negate the BS WW that we are getting from GCA anyway.

OTOH, if we do it now before we get peace with GCA, that will be blown, as we will be on the same continent as them.

SO I would say yes if we get peace with GCA. yes if Lucky delays for a few turns. No if it has to happen this turn and lucky will give us peace next turn.

	04-02-2004 04:50									#6
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Sleepy has a very good point about timing. Honestly, while I'm not much for trying out new ways to exploit the game, this has already been done in force by GWT/GCA.

However there is one thing we need to think of...what if GWT gets so annoyed with us that they start the war and actively research toward astronomy. Yes, it will take them a while to get there and get a force over here, but are we prepared to fight an invasion if they come in force while we are in REXing mode?

One other possibility, and this one is a good one...if GWT doesn't attack us, then we have a beachhead city on the other continent before railroads...though we'd probably have to give the cities back sooner or later as part of a deal. But something to think about if we make this deal is keeping at least one city on that continent for...uhhmm...future use.

	04-02-2004 04:58									#7
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If GWT is busy fighting an all-out struggle for supremacy with CGN, they aren't going to have the resources and time to dedicate to invading us simultaneously.

If they research for Astronomy, that means they won't be researching for Military Tradition while they KNOW CGN will be.

No, they have to remain dedicated to one front at a time. To try to fight on multiple fronts at once would be suicide.

	04-02-2004 05:26									#8
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Actually I agree with you, but the point I was trying to make was, "Are we willing to take that chance and end up possibly screwing up our entire REX/Growth phase we're currently in?" We already know GCA doesn't act rationally and if they have any influence at all over GWT then it could be a possibility down the road.

We are well-prepared for a moderate force, but what if GWT suddenly decides to hole up with defensive units against CGN (yes, it's unlikely and against their philosophy, but I'm trying to think of different possibilities here) and send their attackers on boats toward us? Would we survive? Yes, but our rising power would effectively be broken.

This is only a possibility of what might happen, but who knows. This should be given some thought before jumping in with both barrels.

	04-02-2004 05:34									#9
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What gains are there? We get 5 turns of war unweariness before we are forced by Mongoose's ruling to declare peace. CGN gets their units transported for healing... and GWT gets undefended cities for free, at the cost of 5 turns of WW. Those cities would better be disbanded by CGN, which also transports their troops IIRC... in which case GWT won't make any gains.

The GS maneuver didn't work, and we were able to try to defend what we gained from RP, while in the ISDG we can't as we can't reach them safely.

DeepO

	04-02-2004 05:34									#10
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Let's take 'em. GWT can attack us and give us a WW bonus to cancel out the damndable GCA WW hit that will never go away.

What goes around comes around, indeed.

--Togas

	04-02-2004 06:56									#11
	No, don't do it. Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

i don't think accepting Front Line cities from CGN is a good idea. At this point in the game, our objective is - Rex like crazy and maintain an equilibrium in the other continent where neither GWT nor CGN achieve significant military gains against each other. Accepting Front Line cities do not coincide with our objectives. In fact, we are just telling the whole World, loud and clear that we are fighting along side CGN. Many of you have spoken not too long ago that GWT, despite their Ansar Warrior and GA, do not have sufficient firepower to overwhelm CGN, and fear that CGN will overrun GWT once they have Siphali(sp). So, if we fight alongside CGN now, what right do we have to defend GWT, should CGN gets too strong in the future. Furthermore, having the Front line cities will not change the War. GWT will not stop the War because of our presence and we are too weak to defend the cities. In fact, GWT can do a few things which will cause us siginificant damage. First, they can get GCA to attack us !! While GCA is weak military against us, they still have lots of military units left and can easily take our Front line cities in the other continent. And the consequence is : we will not be able to have peace with them anymore and UN will stand by their decision !! Second, GWT can go after us themselves, take our cities and Gold and it will also result in neverending WW. Third, GWT can bypass us and attack CGN, so our Front Line cities become irrelevant.

I read the other thread of GCA offering peace if there are 5 turns of peace. So, the situation has become more stable. Once we kill off their Galley and Spearmen, we should get in-game peace very shortly. We have waited long enough, let's not get distracted for short-term gains.

	04-02-2004 07:10									#12
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As for me, I'm on the fence about this. If GWT does declare war on us, those citied will be totally defenceless.

If we deside to Rush build any units, they will be costly. I would be COMPLETELY against having a NM in one of those cities, as GWT could trigger our GA when we are still Super REXing and that would be very disasterous, IMHO.

I know that we are in no position, currently, to help CGN except for advise and techs, but do we really want to do this?? The reports from CGN about GWT's stacks are not very good. But, I'm of the opinion that we have also done more than enough to warn CGN in as much in advance about GWT's intentions and methods. They chose to ignore it. So, why should we get further involved, if they didn't take our past warnings to heart?

I know that the situation over there is grave, but we want both of them weakened while we grow strong. Doing this could have disasterous connotations against us in the later game. Conversely, they could fully benifit us for the end game (i.e. UN vote).

This is a VERY complex issue that needs further thought.

E_T

	04-02-2004 08:56									#13
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rush - excellent point about GCA capturing the cities, which they no doubt would try to do. Then all we are doing is helping GCA expand their empire.

	04-02-2004 09:21									#14
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In principle, I am in favor.

But what will it accomplish? What did the gifting accomplish to GS? Think about that...

...and unlike GS, we CAN'T send troops.

	04-02-2004 09:41									#15
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If it was going to have an impact on the war, then I would be in favor of it. Unfortunately, the only things I see it doing are:

We lose gold when they capture the cities.
They gain roads when they capture the cities.
They gain cities when they capture the cities.

Benefits? Getting GWT to attack us for 5 turns of war happiness. But after that it's back to the status quo, and if we ever need to side with GWT against CGN then we will have alienated GWT perhaps past the point where they will allow us to help them later.

	04-02-2004 10:11									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Trip We lose gold when they capture the cities. They gain roads when they capture the cities. They gain cities when they capture the cities.

Very good points.

Trip has convinced me to change my position, despite the WW benefits.

--Togas

	04-02-2004 11:22									#17
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The gold problem might be lessened by gifting some of our treasury to CFC till this is over.

However, I think it would probably be best to stay out of this. I very much doubt GWT would stop just because they become poly cities; better that CGN just abandon them

	04-02-2004 12:51									#18
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Unfortunately, If you abondon a city, the units there DO NOT transport to the cap. They just sit there fortified on a roadless pile of rubble. If they are going to disband them, they need to move their units out first to get the road benefit.

	04-02-2004 13:24									#19
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What 'WW bonus' are you talking about? When we get into a war with GWT, wouldn't that make WW worse ?!

Don't accept the cities - it'll draw us into their conflict, and we're not ready for it yet.

	04-02-2004 14:52									#20
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When in a represenative form of government (uch as we are - Republic) a civ recives a "call to arms" so to speak when another country declares war on them. The people get happy. A sort of Nationalism. Anyway, it would give us 5 turns of negative WW.

	04-02-2004 14:53									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Trip We lose gold when they capture the cities. They gain roads when they capture the cities. They gain cities when they capture the cities.

I am reluctant to point this out but...

CGN pillages their roads.
Loads the city with units, and then gifts it to us.
On our turn, we accept the city, and immediately disband it.
All of CGN's units are then warped to their capital.

Thus..
No Apolyton gold lost, No Roads, No cities for GWT, and CGN gets their units warped.


However...

I do not want to have anything to do with offer. It is a grey area of exploit vs game mechanism, that I would rather avoid.

	04-02-2004 15:19									#22
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Gold is not an issue, the times we remembered, we sent our treasury to RP as well. (might have forgotten it a few times, those were turbulent turns for GS).

The only way I would see this work is that we abandon the cities for CGN, as H_E pointed out already.

DeepO

	04-02-2004 17:32									#23
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If we get a chance to abandon the cities (not sure if we would even get a chance due to turn order), they will create workers. These workers can then make an attempt to get to CGN defensive lines. Either that, or GWT would pounce on them giving us the benefit of reverse WW without the loss of gold (or GWT gained city). The only problem I could see with this is if GWT didn't capture them and CGA had a couple of units in the area and used the workers as an arguement for not signing peace (however, if CGA did not have units in the area and GWT still didn't capture them, I think we would be able to get them to CGN protective area.

	04-02-2004 20:09									#24
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I dunno guys, Im as fed up as any of you about the GCA/GWT Bull$hit we have been putting up with.

But this is a gray area we are contemplating getting into here. And our whole mantra thus far has been the righteous team. How is this going to affect getting "FAIR" rulings for us in the future if we suddenly become like the thing we detest?

Im leaning against.

	04-02-2004 20:53									#25
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Question: are those cities above pop1, and/or do they have culture? I mean, if they're size1's, shouldn't they be autorazed when captured? Or doesn't that happen in PBEM?

Personally, given that GCA/GWT have already used the warp exploit, I'm fine with using it, *IF* it advances our cause.

The potential problems I see: if we don't get peace with GCA prior to this happening, they will be able to say that since we now have cities on their continent the war should continue (and they would be right). GWT will not hesitate to take out those cities, so everything will have to be done just right.

Random thought: what about CFC? What if they accepted the cities, instead of us?

-Arrian

	04-02-2004 21:44									#26
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We could always ask for a ruling from Mongoose on this.

	04-02-2004 22:12									#27
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quote: We could always ask for a ruling from Mongoose on this.

Yes, because Mongoose's rulings have all been so well respected in the past

	04-02-2004 22:31									#28
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At this point I think we should try to keep our heads out of this war as best we can until things start leaning decisively one way or another.

If GWT begins overruning CGN's front lines, then we can consider doing this. If not, then I don't think we should intervene until that point.

	04-02-2004 22:51									#29
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

If the only reason CGN wanted to do this was too transport their injured Army back home for healing then we should do it. Our turn is right after theirs. We can disband the city that turn if needs be and GWT or any other team would be none the wiser. Since GWT/GCA already used the teleport system I am more than ok with using it ourselves.

We won't lose Gold. (because we disband before GWT can attack us.)

They won't gain roads when they capture the cities. (Because CGN will use their available Knights to pillage roads then move back into the city before they gift it to us; and even if CGN did not have enough units to pillage all roads it still does not outweigh the advantage of getting your army healed.)

They won't gain cities when they capture the cities.(Because there will be no city for them to capture since we can disband it before GWT's turn.)

In other words, it won't cost us jack. Lets just make sure CGN knows what it is doing in this instance and then give them the help they want.

	04-02-2004 23:12									#30
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Forgiveness please,

I don't know the full history, hey I'm trying folks, but Arnelos mentions they already used a massive warp.

In such a case, I believe Trip knows my position. They have not shown any respect for the game mechanics when they used such an exploit, I will therefore not show them any respect.

However, what units do the enemy possess? Would us grabbing a backwater city away from the front and rushing some units be able to help in any significant way?