13-02-2004 01:47									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

ND has offered us 600 gold for Physics, what do we think?

	13-02-2004 01:48									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

ND are offering 600g for Physics. I said we'd put it to the forum. Shall I try and raise that - it's worth more than that

	13-02-2004 01:52									#33
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

beat me to it, sleepy - good on ya

	13-02-2004 02:36									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

What did GoW pay? Metallurgy + 500g?

-Arrian

	13-02-2004 02:38									#35
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Anyway, I figure we should charge slightly less than what we charged GoW (since now that GoW have it, it's more devalued).

Also, we should hold off on giving it to them until the NEED it, to prevent any extra devaluation for Lego. Ever little bit helps.

-Arrian

	13-02-2004 03:54									#36
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

OK, the chat is done. Logs to follow.

1. All agreed to trade tech amongst ourselves, locking Lego out. I think Zayxus agreed to that. GoW certainly did.
2. GS do Steam, GoW do Med, ND do Nat. All trade.
3. GS does Electricity. GoW does Industrialisation. ND may be behind - doesn't matter.

Timing is an issue and there's ToG in the way. These yet to be resolved but the deal is there in principle.

ND want to pay cash for GS tech. Offered 600 for Physics. A bit low, but we might want to compromise when the time is right.

GoW/ND want a 3-way hit on Lego, claiming they won't do it without GS involvement. Will offer us SP.

GoW seek Industrialisation. They seemed pleased with our proposal. GoW will persue Vox over their free tech.

For my part, I held to the line of the team as the consensus had it in the last discussion, while holding the door open to the possibility of a GS contribution. I had little doubt that this was a genuine proposal.

	13-02-2004 04:14									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

As we're already 4 turns ahead of Lego in tech and with them being frozen out of the tech trades doesn't this pretty much make us certain to be the first to discover sci method?

If so things are looking pretty good we should perhaps be looking to pre-sell the techs we would get from ToE but I guess were pretty much guarenteed to bag hoover.

Perhaps we could work a lux into the physics deal with ND? Preferably one that they are currently giving to Lego?

	13-02-2004 04:25									#38
	Tired of ads?

one thing I was curious about was that we don't have mil trad, didn't discuss getting it, but GoW wanted us to commit 30 cavs to the effort.


I wish we had a definite time frame down for an attack. We know the earliest assuming no trades/espionage is what 11 turns for lego into industrial? Meaning 11 turns before a presumed 66% chance of either rifles or rails. Or if Vox pulled medicine, we would have 15-17 turns before landing. Not a lot of time to a)rebuild our navy (8 galleons) b) build cavs (20-30) and c) upgrade knights we have on hand.

What we could do is cut the iron and build warriors to replace the knights on the wall, that would be a cheap way to free up some units and leave us still protected. Also certain spots we are less likely to be attacked (SE) and we will know if we have been probed for a weakness in the wall.

I'm in favor of joining in this battle, and I want a cav named after me

	13-02-2004 04:41									#39
	GoW/ND Chat - part 1 Support Apolyton

(copy in log)

quote: {14:28} {MasterZen} ok, now that we're all here {14:28} {MasterZen} let me put up our side of the agenda: {14:28} {Cort} ok {14:28} {MasterZen} 1) tech trades (including early industrial) {14:28} {MasterZen} 2) discussion on the Lego screenshot {14:29} {MasterZen} 3) geo-strategy {14:29} {MasterZen} and of course, anything else you guys want to discuss {14:29} {Cort} sounds good {14:29} {asleepathewheel} great {14:30} {asleepathewheel} Is someone logging this, and can we get a copy afterwards {14:30} {MasterZen} I am logging {14:30} {MasterZen} I can e-mail you guys a copy no problem {14:30} {Cort} cool {14:30} {MasterZen} oh boy, guess who's coming... {14:31} * Trip has joined #GoW_CoFA {14:31} {Cort} :gasp: {14:31} {aggie} hi mr eye {14:31} {Trip} greets {14:31} {Trip} what've I missed {14:31} {Trip} {14:31} * MasterZen pokes the eye with a toothpick {14:32} {aggie} we just agree that we'd all vote for lux for the UN victory congrats {14:32} {MasterZen} yeah, Lux, you really showed us how to play civ {14:32} {Trip} yay {14:32} {Cort} so, item #1 - tech trades {14:32} {MasterZen} yes {14:32} {Trip} the ISDG teams did it worse than me {14:33} {aggie} indeed {14:33} {MasterZen} I'm not sure if there's anything left to trade in the medieval. Just an interesting note thoguh: Vox will get a free tech {14:33} {Cort} Indeed {14:33} {Cort} Zayxus, do you wish to offer us anything for Physics? {14:33} {MasterZen} well, there's still Economics and Theory of Gravity, perhaps we can trade these {14:34} {Cort} When Lego build Smiths, Economics becomes as useful as Music Theory {14:34} {MasterZen} it's still a required tech though, isn't it? {14:34} {Zayxus} well , physics has a price, let me see... {14:35} {aggie} isn't eco required though for next age though {14:35} {Cort} btw - they started Magellans in Jackson (Lego) {14:35} {MasterZen} perhaps a pre-build? {14:35} {aggie} i imagine it must be a place holder {14:35} {Cort} - or about to finish it, if it's a Palace prebuild, as we suspect. It'll fire their GA {14:35} {Cort} no Eco aint mandatory {14:35} {aggie} just what we don't need {14:35} {MasterZen} then it's just ToG {14:36} {Cort} We'll have that soon {14:36} {aggie} we'll we have mt soon {14:36} {Cort} ok {14:36} {Cort} How about a 3-way on Nat, Steam, and Medicine? {14:37} {MasterZen} sounds like a plan. Although perhaps we might want to research Steam ASAP {14:37} {aggie} i am eager to see where coal is too {14:37} {MasterZen} perhaps a 3-way collaboration on Steam, and then each of us do the next 3 techs {14:38} {Trip} I know {14:38} {Cort} The fastest way for you to see Steam is to research Medicine and Trade it for our Steam. {14:38} {Cort} I mean see coal {14:38} * MasterZen hasn't looked at the industrial tech tree in a looooong time {14:39} {aggie} i ahve but for conquest not ptw {14:39} {MasterZen} hehe, the only C3C game I've played since the beta is AU501 {14:40} {MasterZen} and I'm still not in the industrial {14:40} {Cort} The tree is in my head {14:40} {Cort} - and in front of me {14:41} * MasterZen wonders what free tech Vox will get {14:41} {Cort} Nat, hopefully {14:41} {MasterZen} i'd prefer they get Medicine actually... {14:41} {MasterZen} you know who they're going to give it to afterall.. {14:41} {Zayxus} to GS: for Physics: 600 Beaker or Gold as offer {14:42} {MasterZen} see this is the thing. The quicker we get Steam, the quicker we can also get Industrialization {14:43} {Cort} Zayxus - is that an offer of 600g for Physics? {14:43} {Zayxus} yes. {14:43} {Cort} MZ - fine, we understand. Is that a Uni Suff prebuild in Imperial there? {14:44} {Cort} Zaxyus - we'll put that to our Forum, {14:44} {aggie} good question wish i knew the answer {14:44} {MasterZen} by definition, GoWers are not affected by WW {14:45} {MasterZen} in fact we suffer reverse-WW. If we are not at war for too long, our people get restless. THAT's the real reason we attacked RP. Just don't tell anyone {14:45} {aggie} well at least our players do {14:46} {MasterZen} especially H_E and GF {14:46} {Cort} Hows this, MZ. Our Steam for Your Medicine, then our electricity for your industrialisation {14:46} {Cort} aggie - you'd better go attack Lego then {14:46} {aggie} well i'm a man who just wants piece {14:47} {MasterZen} sounds like an idea Cort {14:47} {Cort} a piece of Lego, a piece of Stormia, yeajh I know {14:47} {MasterZen} on both accounts {14:47} {Cort} THen ND, once we bring 'em up can do Nat and trade us that for Steam and Medicine {14:48} {Zayxus} (to Cort: all right) {14:49} {MasterZen} what about the Vox tech? Maybe we can trade something and get it easier... {14:49} {aggie} first we need vox up to dfate {14:49} {Cort} We're assuming Vox are working for Lego {14:49} {MasterZen} of course {14:50} {Cort} so we're not trading them physics for demo, for example, before Lego have Physics {14:50} {aggie} but with NDA's it mightwork. I wonder what tech lego is doing {14:50} {MasterZen} that brings us to part 2) {14:50} {MasterZen} Lego is doing 10% research {14:50} * MasterZen goes to look at the screenie {14:50} {Cort} Guys, the key is for all of us 3 teams is to keep Lego out of the tech loop, and make them research everything themselves {14:50} {Cort} MZ - still at 10% - that was 2/3 turmns ago {14:50} {aggie} agreed {14:51} {Cort} Lego finished off Economics that turn, according to the beaker count, so they may have been able to hold back the slider for the last turn {14:51} {Cort} Aggie - excellent! {14:52} * Trip has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer ) {14:52} {Cort} We haven't traded a single tech, or our second lux to Lego because we want to delay them economically {14:52} * Trip has joined #gow_cofa {14:53} {MasterZen} after they finish the Sistine and JS Bachs they won't even need luxes {14:53} * Trip has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer ) {14:53} {asleepathewheel} assuming they ever finish sistine {14:53} {MasterZen} ahhhhhh {14:53} {asleepathewheel} ah yes, the perpetual prebuild {14:53} {Cort} Hey shall we talk about THAT {14:54} {asleepathewheel} I wonder if they knew that going in, or just noticed the loophole later {14:54} {MasterZen} yeah what the hell {14:54} * Trip has joined #gow_cofa {14:54} {MasterZen} you connection is a piece of crap Trip, even worse than mine {14:55} {Cort} If they switch it to Smiths, the rest of the teams should put out a joint statement saying the deal on Sistine is over. No-one traded them a 600s prebuild for the whole game {14:55} {MasterZen} are you actually planning to build it? {14:55} {Trip} :P {14:55} {Cort} NO. {14:56} {Cort} I mean no. {14:56} {Trip} haha {14:56} {MasterZen} lol {14:56} {Trip} NOOOOOOO! {14:56} {Trip} ;D {14:56} {aggie} what a slip in a chat, ohhhh NOOOOO {14:56} {MasterZen} 4ABSOLUTLEY NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ****ING WAY!!!!! {14:56} {Cort} Though we might if there's a cascade anytime {14:57} {MasterZen} Sistines... that's such an un-GoW-like wonder {14:57} {Cort} Actually, the best thing would be to let them build it then trash Legopolis, so it AND JSB are gone for ever! {14:57} {aggie} or you can take legopolis and then rush a palace their with a GL {14:58} {MasterZen} GL's are best used to rush warriors :P {14:58} {Cort} Actually we thought 'Pernies was a bit of an un-GoW-like wonder ... but there are better things ahead, right? {14:58} {MasterZen} hahahaha {14:58} {MasterZen} we like science. Gives us new weapons to kick butt with {14:59} {aggie} I must leave now, have fun {14:59} {Trip} like Sanitation {14:59} {Trip} {14:59} {MasterZen} cya aggie {14:59} {Cort} cya Aggie {15:00} * aggie has quit IRC (Quit: ) {15:01} {MasterZen} holy ****... you have no clue what just happened {15:02} {Cort} what? {15:02} {MasterZen} vondrack popped up in our other channel {15:04} {Cort} So he's seen us all here? hehe {15:04} {MasterZen} nope {15:04} {MasterZen} this room is private and password-protected {15:04} {Trip} secret, not private :P {15:04} {MasterZen} secret AND private {15:04} {Trip} nrstk {15:05} {Trip} if it was private it would have a p too {15:05} * opd has joined #GoW_CoFA {15:05} {opd} hey {15:05} {MasterZen} lo {15:05} {Cort} Hiya OPD {15:06} * Trip has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer ) {15:06} * Trip{gone} has joined #gow_cofa {15:06} {Cort} So where were we - Lego's prebuild or tech deals? {15:06} {MasterZen} Lego {15:06} * Trip{gone} is now known as Trip {15:06} {Cort} They have a lot of luxuries in there for a 1-lux civ. {15:07} {MasterZen} yep {15:07} {Cort} ...mostly yours, I think, Zayxus {15:07} * MasterZen looks suspiciously at Zayxus... hee hee {15:08} {Cort} Lego have a loose build, with hospitals they can go full on metro everywhere and eat us all. {15:08} {MasterZen} those are GoWian grapes though {15:09} {MasterZen} I can tell. You can just feel the drunken power of the wine {15:09} * MasterZen opens a bottle of vintage 510 AD Dom Zenignon {15:10} {Cort} However, without luxuries thay'll struggle to keep top pop levels happy - even with the odd drop of GoW Cabernet Sauvignon {15:10} {MasterZen} this leads us to 3)... {15:10} {MasterZen} why don't we just invade their ass? {15:11} {Cort} Do they have a sea wall? {15:11} {MasterZen} nope {15:11} {Cort} Your KIDDING! {15:11} {MasterZen} not last time we checked... {15:12} {MasterZen} plus, there's like a gazillion landing sites {15:12} {Cort} Well go ahead guys. You killed all our units, remember {15:12} {MasterZen} not all of them... {15:12} {Cort} We have the remains on our wall. {15:13} {MasterZen} we can always sign a REAL NAP this time... {15:13} {Cort} Probably, yes. {15:13} {MasterZen} see, with all due respect, a GoW/ND invasion of Lego would kinda leave our asses unprotected... hey, we have to think of everything {15:14} {Cort} We'd probbaly call it a non-intervention agreement or something. NAP is such a dirty word these days. {15:14} {MasterZen} yes, very {15:15} {MasterZen} well the window of opportunity for a successful invasion of Lego slowly vanishes turn by turn... {15:16} {Cort} So we'd give the assurances you require. There is little mood for adventure in Stormia now. We read books and plan our late industrial defences ... {15:16} {MasterZen} plus, I'd hate Lego to win without a real fight {15:16} {Cort} Absolutely, they must bleed. {15:17} {MasterZen} the other possibility is beating them to Tanks by a long shot and then doing a late industrial war {15:17} {Cort} Nice to hit 'em before rails, though. {15:17} {MasterZen} yeah {15:18} {Cort} Why don't they make a sea wall? It's only 100 tiles. {15:18} {MasterZen} maybe they don't have 100 units... {15:18} {Cort} Are they still on Bob? {15:18} {asleepathewheel} have they withdrawn their knights from bob? {15:18} {asleepathewheel} doh {15:18} {Cort} Stormians think alike! {15:19} {MasterZen} lol {15:19} {MasterZen} I don't see any {15:20} {MasterZen} well let's agree on something {15:20} {Cort} Yes, agreement. {15:20} {MasterZen} Re: 1) {15:21} {MasterZen} In theory we do ND - Nat, GoW - Med, GS - Steam {15:21} {Cort} Yes. {15:21} {MasterZen} we keep an eye out though for Vox, perhaps they might be willing to trade {15:21} {Cort} OK {15:22} * MasterZen has been sucking up to Vox as of late precisely thinking of that... {15:22} {Cort} is that what the wine is all about {15:22} {MasterZen} well maybe I can get them drunk too {15:22} {Cort} lol {15:23} {Cort} We have an idea about Vox {15:23} {MasterZen} then again, it's usally me who's drunk... hehe {15:23} {Cort} - but we're confused. {15:23} {MasterZen} i'm all ears {15:24} {Cort} I mean, we assume that Vox is working for Lego, but in our deals they seem almost independent. {15:24} {Cort} THey're trying to flog us Democracy. {15:24} {Cort} Thay won't take lux, they want cash or tech {15:24} {MasterZen} well. IMO, they're on their own but probably giving/receiveing techs with Lego {15:24} {Cort} But every time we get a tech that Lego has, Vox gets it that turn. {15:26} {Cort} We think they're trying to trade Demo for a mandatory tech that Lego don't have. We said "you'll have to wait before we can pay you physics, for certain other parties to get it" {15:26} {Cort} And we're waiting to see what they say to that. Why would they try to trade for tech, when Lego will give them it all, {15:27} {Cort} to get thm into the Ind Age for the freebie. {15:27} {MasterZen} of course {15:27} {MasterZen} you know, if Lux were still around, we'd probably be gang-banging them to give us their free tech too {15:28} {Cort} We might try and get RP to find out for us. they and Vox have ... empathy {15:28} {MasterZen} lol! {15:29} {Cort} MZ, whad do you think of a stack of RP conquistadors teaming through the dark heart of Lego and pillaging their resources? {15:29} {MasterZen} whoa, that'd be interesting {15:29} {MasterZen} explorer/conquistador pillaging is a devastating tactic {15:30} {MasterZen} we had so much fun with it in a modern start MP I played a few months ago {15:30} {Cort} I bet they'd be interested. THey have some time left on Navigation, though. It might be too late for your window. {15:31} {Cort} Speaking of Navigation- Lego have started Magellan {15:31} {MasterZen} yeah you told us that a while ago {15:31} {Cort} If it was a prebuild its GA next turn {15:32} {Cort} How about spying on Jackson? It's 178g. We could split that 3 ways and reveal some map. In fact, we could buy much of their map through investigating {15:33} {MasterZen} true {15:33} {MasterZen} maybe we'll reveal the giant doughnut shape {15:33} {Cort} Maybe wait a few turns on Jackson to see if they Build Smith's (GA) or Sistine. {15:34} {MasterZen} GoW would have to wait a bit too, we're a bit short on funds right now {15:34} {MasterZen} would ND agree to this? {15:34} * MasterZen looks at Zayxus...

	13-02-2004 04:43									#40
	GoW / ND chat - part 1 Put an end to popups!

quote: {15:35} {Cort} If they get their GA now it'll be too early for them. As long as non-one trades them Physics, Magnetism and ToG, they'll waste their GA not being able to research IA tech, and go 4 turn on MA tech instead. {15:36} {Cort} Funds - yeah, sorry 'bout that, Magnets are ready when you are, btw {15:36} {MasterZen} ahh good {15:37} {Cort} Frigates! Ocean! {15:37} {MasterZen} we have to scrape up the 200g first. I'd calculate in about 6-7 turns we'll send you the cash and tech {15:37} {Cort} :gasp: we can wait for the cash. We need Metallurgy before that. {15:37} {MasterZen} ok, we can trade techs this very turn {15:38} {Cort} Then it's just ToG. {15:38} {MasterZen} pretty much {15:40} {MasterZen} can we also agree that IF we decide to attack Lego, it has to be a joint GoW/ND/GS affair. If any of us doesn't want to, it just can't happen (successfuly) {15:40} {Cort} What do you need us for, apart from our obsolete units well away from your ass? {15:41} {MasterZen} surely GS can field about 20-30 cavs in the medium term? {15:41} {MasterZen} obviously if you decide to assist, we'd provide GS with saltpeter {15:43} {Cort} I see, that would help, but we've burned our boats. They're mostly now a library. {15:43} {MasterZen} oh my, GS has turned hippie... {15:43} {Cort} Fraid so. {15:44} {Cort} We thought you'd be pleased {15:44} {MasterZen} where's your warmonger bunch, Arrian Theseus and SR? {15:45} {Cort} SR is retiring from DG play, {15:45} {Cort} Theseus wants to build a space ship, {15:47} {Cort} and Arrian is retraining the war-chickens as schoolteachers. We're very happy {15:47} {MasterZen} I see {15:48} {Cort} You guys can have a ton of Cav pretty soon {15:48} {MasterZen} you are aware that there's a big possibility that Stormia might not have at least one space ship resource? Lego on the other hand... {15:48} {Cort} I was joking about the space ship {15:48} {Cort} We'd get our asses nuked long before that. {15:49} {MasterZen} you know, it'd be funny as hell if Lego lacked uranium {15:50} {Cort} Yes, it would. What terrain types does it appear on? {15:51} {MasterZen} I believe forest, tundra... hills? {15:51} {Trip} hehe {15:51} * Trip goes to look where the uranium is... {15:52} {Cort} So, are you worried about your butt, or do you actually NEED another 20-30 units {15:52} {Trip} mountains {15:52} {MasterZen} a bit of both actually {15:52} {Cort} We've discussed it as a contingency, but we'd need to know what the war aims are, {15:52} {Trip} forest {15:52} {Trip} not hills {15:52} {MasterZen} war aims: reduction of Lego to the point that it is no longer a sure-fire winner {15:53} {Cort} sounds reasonable {15:53} {MasterZen} obviously complete destruction of Lego is well near impossible {15:53} {MasterZen} but a quick devastating strike against their core might do enough damange {15:53} {Cort} they need clipping, though {15:54} {MasterZen} and I figure that the 3 of us together can probably pull it off {15:54} {MasterZen} I mean, 30 cavs each = 90 {15:54} {Cort} a quick strike on the core sounds good {15:55} {Cort} That would leave GoW and ND with about 20 each to come and take Stormia ... {15:56} {MasterZen} yes pretty much... err... wait :P {15:57} {asleepathewheel} Good job cort, you tricked him. mwahaha {15:57} {MasterZen} dammit... all these years doing diplomacy only to slip up at the most obvious ruse... {15:58} {Cort} So no GS in the attack, no hit on Lego. Is that the bottom line? {15:58} {MasterZen} pretty much {15:59} {MasterZen} I mean seriously, I'm willing to give GS whatever assurances it wants that we'll not use it to attack stormia. I understand your paranoia just the same as we are paranoid of going alone {15:59} {asleepathewheel} we just remember Vox's second trip to Bob... {16:00} {Cort} We can put it to the team. The attack would have to be soon, though. How soon did you have in mind? {16:00} {opd} why not just {16:00} {opd} embargo them {16:00} {MasterZen} seriously, if I had to choose where to wield the might of GoW's army, I'd definitley use it where it matters most. If we go to war with GS it only gives Lego more time to win {16:01} {Cort} Yes, we were looking at economic measures to weaken Lego {16:02} {MasterZen} i'm not against that either {16:02} * aggie has joined #gow_cofa {16:02} * ChanServ sets mode: +o aggie {16:02} {Cort} A tech loop between GoW/ND/GS would lock Lego out - followed later by a luxury embargo to stop them growing cities much above 12 {16:03} {MasterZen} well, can I ask you a question? {16:03} {Cort} WGo on {16:04} {MasterZen} assuming we do that, what's GS's hope of victory other than space race with the less than certain odds of having every resource? {16:04} {Cort} We don't have a victury plan, just a survival plan. {16:05} {MasterZen} well, your unit wall is a survival plan in itself :P {16:05} {Cort} It's phase 1 {16:05} {aggie} we saw it {16:05} {Cort} please come and look. It's very nice. {16:05} {MasterZen} I already did {16:06} {MasterZen} it's worse than U.S. Customs at JFK Airport after 9/11 {16:06} {aggie} I wouldn't go that far MZ {16:06} {Cort} You guys have enough strength to hurt Lego without us. that leaves your security. We can work on that. {16:07} {MasterZen} not even a token expeditionary force? {16:08} {MasterZen} I mean, we'd end up splitting the conquered territories after all... {16:08} {Cort} We wouldn't be able to hold them from you. Or Lego. they'll still be there. {16:09} {MasterZen} seriously, wouldn't providing GS with saltpeter be proof enough of our intentions? {16:10} {opd} yeah but you don't really need us? {16:10} {Cort} Quite possibly, one for the team to consider. A token force is not unthinkable ... {16:11} {MasterZen} my point is that the more troops we can manage, the more certain our victory, and the bigger the spoils {16:12} {Cort} We're not confident of holding those spoils, but what do you envisage - trash a few cities in the core and replace them with our own? {16:13} {aggie} the main point if we choose this course could be a scorched earch policy to destroy the economic and military poterntial of Lego {16:13} {MasterZen} and keep their resources {16:14} {MasterZen} and brag in the public forum {16:15} {Trip} mainly the last part :P {16:16} {Cort} THat'd be a GoW thang {16:16} {MasterZen} you know the whole reason for this is to provide entertainment for Trip :P {16:16} {Trip} of course... {16:16} {Trip} {16:17} {Cort} Trimming that Green blob would be great. Entertainment for Vox, too. They might see something this time. {16:17} {Trip} it's fun predicting how things will turn and watching things unfold {16:17} * Trip thinks Legoland ought to have had a neighbor :P {16:17} {MasterZen} err.. they do have a neighbor :P {16:18} {Cort} Yeah, did Lego edit the map or something at the begining? {16:18} {Trip} :P {16:18} {Trip} a neighbor to start the game, that is {16:18} {MasterZen} wait, just you wait... unitl you see the doughnut hole! :P {16:18} {Trip} NYE was the one that started the game, IIRC :P {16:19} {Trip} it'd be kind of hard for Lego to mod the map :P {16:19} {Cort} 480 tiles for one civ. Lucky them. {16:19} {Trip} I don't know if anyone saw the thread I posted a while back {16:20} {Trip} about if there were an 8th civ {16:20} {MasterZen} I did {16:20} {MasterZen} they'd be RP's neighbors :P {16:20} {Trip} it would have been west of RP {16:21} {Cort} So we're agreed on everything except commitment of GS troops against Lego... {16:21} {MasterZen} yeah {16:21} {MasterZen} well, it's not like GoW and ND participation is 100% assured either :P {16:21} {MasterZen} but I like to bring up the ideas first {16:24} {Cort} So if GS don't join in, it doesn't happen. What happens to all those units if you don't attack Lego? No, I mustn;t ask that {16:24} {MasterZen} well, I haven't really said that either... {16:25} {MasterZen} but I'd say the chances of attacking Lego are greatly diminished... {16:25} {Cort} OK, this needs to be taken back to the forum {16:25} {MasterZen} sure thang {16:25} {Cort} But on the tech deal ... does that still sound good? {16:26} {MasterZen} oh definitely {16:26} {MasterZen} does ND like the idea too? {16:28} {Zayxus} yeah {16:29} {Cort} great! {16:30} {MasterZen} cool, I'll see if I can hog something out of Vox though {16:30} {MasterZen} (the things I do for a free tech...) {16:30} {Cort} so we are concluded for now? {16:30} {MasterZen} yeah, at least on my part {16:31} {MasterZen} who wants logs? {16:31} {Cort} yes please {16:31} {MasterZen} to the address you sent me the e-mail right before the chat? {16:31} {Cort} Yes - thanks {16:31} {MasterZen} ok {16:32} * Trip has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer ) {16:32} {MasterZen} yey, he left, now we can goof off :P {16:32} * Trip has joined #gow_cofa {16:32} {MasterZen} well, I am hungry, and I have a nice big piece of salmon in the fridge whispering "eat me... eat me" {16:33} {MasterZen} and I feel so bad if I didn't comply {16:33} {Cort} ok , thanks everone, 'till next time. And PM's meantime {16:33} * aggie has left #gow_cofa {16:33} {MasterZen} great {16:33} {MasterZen} nice to have you guys around {16:33} {Cort} you too - cya {16:33} {MasterZen} I can honestly say it is now a pleasure to chat with GS {16:33} {Cort} {16:33} * Cort has left #GoW_CoFA {16:34} {Zayxus} {16:34} {Trip} {16:34} {asleepathewheel} oh this is over? I enjoyed listening in, later. {16:34} {MasterZen} cya sleepy {16:34} * asleepathewheel has quit IRC (Quit: ) {16:34} * opd has quit IRC (Quit: ) End of #gow_cofa buffer Thu Feb 12 16:35:46 2004

	13-02-2004 05:06									#41
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If GoW are serious about this they must be expecting this to take place within about an 11/12 turn time frame.

Considering that it would take 3 turns (perhaps more if we want a less defended spot) for the ships to get to Lego that would give us about 9 or so turns to get it together...
However if we get lucky and vox pull med we'd have longer, also if Vox get steam I don't think that would be too much to our disadvantage, whether Lego will even have enough units to beat off 70 - 90 cavs with rails or not is questionable.

We have 5 galleys and 24 knights, upgrading these to cavs/galleons and building an extra galleon would not be too much trouble at all.

The 24 knights we have will be redundant by the time we will again be threatened millitarily, so getting some use out of them would be a good idea. The upgrades would cost 1-2 turns of research, which isn't very much really when you consider the benefits.

I don't think we should build any new units for this or upgrade anything other than knights so that we limit our expenditure.

One problem with this would be maintaining the wall, we may be able to get RP to take the rest of thier wall which would free up 10 or so units and then there are about 12 in eliopolis. Meaning our outlay in terms of land units could simply be upgrading 24 knights to cavs and building a couple of warriors to make up the seawall numbers.

On a sidenote, at whatever point RP take responsibility to the seawall in their land it should be done by us putting cats on the tiles then RP declaring war and taking the cats, then us taking them back later. So that there is never an opportunity for any landing to take place.

However the biggest problem with this would be defensive naval forces from Lego which will likely be extensive and then the resultant land units getting in position once they know were coming.
We'd likely have to build alot of navy to ensure all the units don't go to waste by having them all sunk a few tiles from the coast. Would we have enough time to build such a navy?
Having steam power and ironclads would be a huge boost....

	13-02-2004 05:15									#42
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looks like you and I are on the same page OPD.

Perhaps we could send a galley out to those parts now just to have a look see if there are any pickets in the area.

I think GoW would go along with 24 cavs from us.I think we would want at least 4 muskets to go along with the cavs.

and yes, ironclads would be a huge boost.

steam power wouldn't be thatbad for vox to draw, its not like they can get the whole thing rr'd in 3 turns, plus the fact that they have to deal with 3 simultaneous landings. I love it

	13-02-2004 05:27									#43
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel steam power wouldn't be thatbad for vox to draw, its not like they can get the whole thing rr'd in 3 turns, plus the fact that they have to deal with 3 simultaneous landings. I love it

The one thing I find hard to fathom is when MZ was talking about just damaging them, razing a few cities...
I mean Lego are average in millitary to us so likely have about 20-30 knights, 30 pikes/muskets and a bunch of MI's and other stuff. A simultaneous landing of 90 cavs would do a hell of alot more than just some damage.... Lego would have no chance. Them having RR in place would simply mean taking all their cities in the same turn rather than over 2 or 3 turns.

Also worth noting is that both ND and GoW can launch and land in 1 turn from their own cultural borders!!! So they won't be needing anything other than the galleons.. Although that probably means the lego navy would be on our side instead..

	13-02-2004 05:32									#44
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good points

90 cavs would be devastating. And I doubt the vox army can help out


and good point about the one turn transit from bob. one q. you would think lego would at least cover those squares, wouldn't you? and good point about the lego navy being west. (though we know they probably have ~5 galleys east that they landed those knights with (GoW would probably know the exact number.

	13-02-2004 05:49									#45
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A costing of an expedition of 20 Cav and 10 Muskets was made earlier on the GAUL thread here .

	13-02-2004 05:59									#46
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ah great

estimated 1200 gold for the upgrades. how much is pike to musket. I'm thinking the primary use for the defense is to eat an attack, which pikes having the same defense and hp as cavs, the pikes would go first, so perhaps we wouldn't need to upgrade the pikes, as hopefully we would only receive 10 attacks upon landing.

so if you cut out the pike-musket upgrade you would cut out a huge chunk of that expense. Add that to the 600 ND is possibly giving for physics and we aren't down much, are we?

Last edited by asleepathewheel on 13-02-2004 at 06:35

	13-02-2004 06:33									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus OK, the chat is done. Logs to follow. 1. All agreed to trade tech amongst ourselves, locking Lego out. I think Zayxus agreed to that. GoW certainly did. 2. GS do Steam, GoW do Med, ND do Nat. All trade. 3. GS does Electricity. GoW does Industrialisation. ND may be behind - doesn't matter. Timing is an issue and there's ToG in the way. These yet to be resolved but the deal is there in principle. ND want to pay cash for GS tech. Offered 600 for Physics. A bit low, but we might want to compromise when the time is right. GoW/ND want a 3-way hit on Lego, claiming they won't do it without GS involvement. Will offer us SP. GoW seek Industrialisation. They seemed pleased with our proposal. GoW will persue Vox over their free tech. For my part, I held to the line of the team as the consensus had it in the last discussion, while holding the door open to the possibility of a GS contribution. I had little doubt that this was a genuine proposal.

	13-02-2004 06:49									#48
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Lego may realize by the time Steam is learned, that an invasion is coming. If they do, they would have to rethink railing all their land.

RR's would be used against them, once cities are captured or razed.

A 90 calv invasion would likely be able to eliminate Lego in short order. It could be necessary to have prearrainged land ownership agreements.

Should we be thinking about a possible double cross offer from Lego? I am wonder, if I was Lego and saw this coming, I would have to expect all three teams are involved. No way to split GoW and ND, so the best bet is to try to make a deal with GS.

Bobians can't really afford to go for a jumping on us as we do not have enough land to win it for them. They would still be faced with the same situation and minus our help.

	13-02-2004 14:19									#49
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I think 600g for physics is reasonable. The danger is that if we try and push signifcantly higher, GoW will strike some kind of deal of 200 gold now (to pay us) in return for physics when the NDA runs out (if ND are willing to wait that long).

Remember previous tech deals - the only real solution to being undercut by other civs is to get all our value for the tech on the first deal, and regard anything for the 2nd and later deals as a bonus - being prepared to sell low rather than get nothing. If they are willing to offer 600 up front, I'd be happy to take it - particularly as we'd want not to eat their cash reserves to slow down their research too much (although their industrial research doesn't push us towards ToE, so it's not as important, except for mobilisation and riflemen).

	13-02-2004 15:03									#50
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Fair point, Vulture, though we might want to raise them a little. Full cost of Physics is >1500b. Only we have it, so minus 10% {edit - no, 20%, GoW have it too) deval is still twice their offer.

Surely they'd expect us to haggle their offer up a bit.

	13-02-2004 15:30									#51
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True - they'd probably offer a lowball to start. It's probably worth trying for a little more, but we should get the deal sorted quickly, and not lose out like we've done in the past. Who is our ND representative? Perhaps we should give them authority to finalise a deal without getting further approval here, to speed up the negotiating process (within certain constraints - not going below X gold, although from my point of view, we're already above the minimum, and just need to see if we can improve the deal any).

How are we going to play this with Lego? They used to have a 3-way research pact with ND / GoW. Now its the other way around. Surely they're going to notice that tech deals aren't so easy as they were in the recent past, and (hopefully) no teams are willing to get in to long term partnerships with them. That might give them a rather big clue what's coming. Should we get in touch in the near future and start trying to negotiate a long term deal with them, which falls though, or should we leave that job to GoW?

And I think we need to get ND involved in the second tier IA research, so they don't go looking for other suitors. Unfortunately, the only techs available when we go for Electricity and GoW go for Industrialisation are Sanitation (no real benefit for us, only others), Espionage (we don't like spying, so aren't depserate for this either) or Communism (useless for us as a government right now - although if we get land on Lego it might boost our output. Plus police stations, which are useful more than vital, and take time to build). Or ND could send cash to us and GoW to speed up research, in return for getting the techs once they're done (or do that whilst slowly researching an optional tech...)

Incidentally, re the use of units on Lego - they are units we can afford to lose really. We can't be invaded until marines, and we can get to Motorised Transport before then (if we get ToE), so we will be in a scenario of attacking infantry, and have tanks on hand in principle - cavalry become obsolete. Worst case scenario invading Lego - we lose all our units, and save 20-30 gpt in upkeep for a while.

	13-02-2004 15:55									#52
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ND affairs are mainly being handled by of Zayxus at the moment, which is tough for them as his English is not at Darekill's level. Where's Bongo? Our MAST-ies might know how active he is in ND

I think that cash could be their contribution along the chain. Arrian has been our ambassador for ND, but if time's an issue, and with the TZ gap, I could shoot ND a quick email asking for 800, and we could accept 700. If we get a similiar price for Magnets that would be our upgrade bill taken care of.

We have no Lego Desk in our foreign office, and it should stay that way for now, IMV. The last messages with them were back during the war - all those centuries ago. Re-opening comunications now would show that something was up, and force us to lie to them. Silence is the way.

	13-02-2004 16:08									#53
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There's a case for hanging back on Physics to lower the deval for Lego, but there's also a case for sealing ND into the new tech-alliance.

ND's other option is to hit GoW, right? That may have its appeal for us, but we are only assuming that Lego will then fight for GoW. They might sit it out to get their industrial infrastructure up.

If our goal is ToE / Hoover, an assault on Lego will help that, guaranteeing us ToE I reckon, whether we're onboard or not. Ideally, we'd sit it out and let the others damage Lego before a stalemate's reached. However, if they want us in for their own security (a valid concern, given our aspirations for territory) - and if Lego get their defensive act together they really should be blocking their east coast - an appearance by us in the west might be needed to draw away strength and leave a landing gap on the east.

	13-02-2004 16:12									#54
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Bongo is certainly pretty active in MAST - don't know how much ND stuff he is doing. But since Zayxus is our appointed contact, we ought to go through him for politeness, if no other reason. Do we have any good German speakers active on the team? I can do bad-to-workable German (witness my German limerick to celebrate the end of the Vox war) - I can't remember if Sir Ralph knows German, even if we were around (I always think of him as German, although not sure if that is a weird concoction of my own mind (just checked his profile - his homepage is German)). We might be able to persuade him to either handle ND diplo in the short term, or polish up any translations to make them read better.

	13-02-2004 16:22									#55
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Sir Ralph has given official notice of inactivity on the public forum. I gather he wants a break from Civ.

Vulture, if you have some German, could you try it? Maybe Arrian could be RP Ambassador instead - he works with Arnie in the MZO game and the timezones would be better. Whaddya think?

	13-02-2004 16:24									#56
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As ND are off-site, their Email might be better :

neudemogyptica {AT} cylusion {DOT} com

	13-02-2004 20:18									#57
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Copied over from the turn thread

quote: Originally posted by Arrian Do we have a sense of what Physics is worth so we can counteroffer ND?

I'd be inclined to say 600 gold may be about right for physics, if it were just us and ND I'd say we should be looking for about 60% of first researcher cost (about 1000gold) so that we both have the tech but they had to spend more as we actually did the research.

However we have already traded it to GoW and got a substantial return on our investment, appoximating to getting 2 techs for our 1600 beaker physics investement or 800 per tech.

If we get 600 gold from ND for it too we would be looking at having got 2 techs for 1000 gold investment where as ND would have got 1 tech for 600 gold.

On the other hand 800 gold for physics would mean we would have got 2 techs for 800 gold investment whereas ND would only be getting 1 tech for the same amount.

If we can then go on to trade physics to vox for demo perhaps, we'd be looking at even more for our investment.

This is the kind of theory mast have been working on but I guess it depends on how you see things with regard to how much benefit someone should get for being the one to actually research the tech and the power they have as a result of that.

If Lego were to research it at a reduced 1280 beakers then sell it to ND for 600 gold then the 2 of them would have more or less split the tech cost between them.

If we can get more than 600 gold then great, although perhaps looking for a luxury rather than extra gold would be a good idea.

	13-02-2004 20:31									#58
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Yes, OPD, there are two ways of costing tech :

1. Opportunity cost to the customer. Take full price minus % deval and charge that.

2. Shared cost between participants.

I see now that ND were offering the right price under method 2. We were looking at method 1.

	13-02-2004 21:14									#59
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If we get 600g for Physics, have we recouped our research cost (we traded it for Metallurgy plus gold to GoW, right?)?

If so, then 600 is reasonable.

Let's see what they say.

-Arrian

	13-02-2004 21:25									#60
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We traded Physics for Chem + 100g, and Magnetism for Metallurgy + 100g. PLus 300g compensation for our lost research on Chem when they screwed up.

So yes, we've got a trade return already on Phys and Mag.