09-09-2004 00:28									#61
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I wish there was a multiplayer multiteam democracy game for one of these conquests on Demigod or above with the human teams playing the worst positions adviable.

Based on AI results:
Mesopatiama : Greece, Phoenica
Rise of Rome : Greece, Carthage
Fall of Rome : Celts, Sassanids
MesoAmerica : Aztecs
Middle Ages : Denmark, Bryzanties
Age of Discovery : Dutch, Mayas, Incans
Japan : Any civ caught on a smaller landmass
Napolean : Ottoman Empire
WW II in Pacific : Dutch, UK

	09-09-2004 01:22									#62
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn I wish there was a multiplayer multiteam democracy game for one of these conquests on Demigod or above with the human teams playing the worst positions adviable. Based on AI results: Mesopatiama : Greece, Phoenica Rise of Rome : Greece, Carthage Fall of Rome : Celts, Sassanids MesoAmerica : Aztecs Middle Ages : Denmark, Bryzanties Age of Discovery : Dutch, Mayas, Incans Japan : Any civ caught on a smaller landmass Napolean : Ottoman Empire WW II in Pacific : Dutch, UK

Interesting idea. If you get one going lemme know

	11-09-2004 22:39									#63
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Ok, inspired by this thread I finally tried the scenarios, and they are pretty good. I've gone through them one by one. All on Emporer. Some I had to try two or three times, but I'm up to Japan now. I just can't crack that nut.

Mesopotamia - 7377 - Sumerians

I first tried this as the Hitties, I was doing good, but the Sumerians got most all the wonders and were largest, and ended up winning on points. So I tried the Summerians, and saw they started right next to the Babylonians, so I wiped them out real early, and just kept pushing against my neighbors till the end.

Rise of Rome - 7662 - Romans

This one was fun, but tough. First game I went after the Cathaginians, but because of the seperate land mass it was tough to gains there, or to build off of them. I lost on points to the Persians. Second game I captured the islands from the Carts and then did my best to ignore them. I expanded east quickly, and conquered the Celts to extinction. Greeks declared on me, so I pwned them. It was a squeaker at the end. Just barely beat out the Persians to take the win.

Fall of Rome - 49412 - Celts

Tried twice, both with Celts. I like them because you have a secure base to start from. Close loss the first time, close victory the second.

Middle Ages - 42328 - Franks

Tried first as England, but proved too difficult to expand off the island. (stupid me made my army too large to fit on a ship). I tried Franks and beat down the Spanish, Cordovans, and Burgundians. I never took my relic to Jerusalem (i think it died in the black death)

Mesoamerica - 2493 - Inca

Boring/easy one city culture win.

Age of Discovery - 49167 - Spanish

Cool idea for a scenario, but too easy. I never went to war once, just built some colonies and popped out treasures.

Sengoku

Damn, I can't get this one. I'm always way behind in tech, and I can't expand fast enough, and end up at war with too many people. Grrr.

	12-09-2004 01:06									#64
	Put an end to popups!

On the Japan one, try the Green civ that starts along the river on the west coast, about a third of the way south. It's perhaps in the best position. The high quality of land will also allow you to get a tech lead with realtively few cities and the locations of the resources are such that your a favorite to get 1 (or more) of each stragtic resources and one of most of the luxaries.

It's also a very good position for getting contacts for increased trade tech oppertunities.

On avoiding war, when you see a SoD coming your way when at peace use the mobile road block tactic. You can push back the war out of the game entirely. Also just have the river cities worry about inferstructure. The others should build units instead.

	12-09-2004 04:24									#65
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

for Sengoku I took the civ that starts furthest south on the mainland. Very easy win. I never had to watch my back because I knew the other ai civs were incapable of significant amphibious assaults (the only scenario I have seen good amphibious assaults is Napolean- they will drop of 10 units sometimes!)

In any case, I just kept pounding and pounding (after I got iron) and took over the entire continent. then I went for the island ones.

I need to play this one at a higher difficulty though. It was far too easy.

	12-09-2004 04:31									#66
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Proserpine Particularly if you (Dissident) went after Egypt/Persia. Those guys are hard to get to from Rome in sufficient numbers, you either have to go through Scythians (in roughly the Caucasus) or via Macedon (Greece), or across the sea (which is hard as Carthage basically rules the waves. Or take Carthage, then its possible.

I actually went accross north africa (after taking over carthage). I usually ferried my troops with ships straight south to the road network (I finish up the gaps). Taking out Egypt is real easy. But it does take a while to get all those troops in position. Tedious moving them one by one (I sometimes use stacks in this scenario because of this)

	15-09-2004 00:35									#67
	Inflate your Upload Space

Bump to note victory in Middle Ages as Turks (I hit the VP limit when I had "only" 19% of worlds territory.) and my start of Rise of Rome as Rome.

I think Carthage won't last nearly as long against me as they did against the real Romans.

	15-09-2004 01:20									#68
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Rise of Rome is fairly easy to win if you can keep the Celts from beating up on you at the beginning.

Take Sicily from Carthage first. Then fortify the living bejeebees out of it. Carthage will then ignore Italy and only attack Sicily. It's during this time that you are most vulnerable to Celtic attacks on your northern border. If you can, get the Celts to attack Carthage.

Meanwhile, your Citizens should work on blocking in Macedonia to keep them out of the fertile lands to the north. There's a luxury up there you want.

Once Sicily is stocked with enough Legions to fight off any Carthaginian invasion, turn your attention to the Celts. Destroy them utterly to gain all of Gaul, England and most of Spain.

Kick Carthage out of Spain. They only have a few small holdings.

Now take on the Goths. They are wimps. By then you should have enough land and population to win.

Scythia, Persia and Egypt are too far away to hurt you for most of the game. Macedonia can be a problem so treat them nice.

	15-09-2004 02:03									#69
	Remove this text

With the Celts two starting workers sold for a song on turn 1 to me, I think the Celts will have a delay hooking up their Iron... (Macedon, Egypt, and Persia each sold a worker to me as well at rock bottom prices; Persia did get a GPT deal for the Spice.)

Sorry, but this fortress Silicy tactic strikes me too much like policies of the other major political party in the US and also like certain countries in Europe.

I much prefer the take the war to the enemy's homeland. (Carthage in this case.) Only reason I bothered taking the islands first is that they aren't much of a detour. (And Sardena does have a luxary.)

The block-in the Macedons is a better idea, but I'm in a Golden Age (you'd have to purposely avoid it playing Rome), Rexing can and should wait til it ends and I've already planted the existing citizens on and near the Southern Alps. (Two along the obvious river locations, another on a hill adj to 2 Iron north east and the remaining one filling out Italy proper.) I have a few legions being used as scouts in that area you mentioned. I actually think the Celts are more likely to expand into that territory than the Macedons because of the locked war between Macedon & Persia, which if the score is accurate, Persia seems to currently be doing better.

Last edited by joncnunn on 15-09-2004 at 02:12

	15-09-2004 02:50									#70
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I forgot to mention the other Carthage island with the luxury. Yeah, you want that one too.

But in general I don't bother fighting Carthage on their homeland because it's too much of a logistical nightmare. Carthage has a bigger and faster navy for starts. Second, they usually have swarms of War Elephants in Africa to focus on your invasion. They are likely to get their GA from Rome if Rome invades.

The barbarians tribes, otoh, only loosely control their lands and have sucky units. You need about 5 Legions (type II or III) plus a few for homeland defense to conquer all of the Celts.

The name of the game is land and population and the easiest pickings are to your north.

	15-09-2004 12:22									#71
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: I wish there was a multiplayer multiteam democracy game for one of these conquests on Demigod or above with the human teams playing the worst positions adviable. Based on AI results: Mesopatiama : Greece, Phoenica Rise of Rome : Greece, Carthage Fall of Rome : Celts, Sassanids MesoAmerica : Aztecs Middle Ages : Denmark, Bryzanties Age of Discovery : Dutch, Mayas, Incans Japan : Any civ caught on a smaller landmass Napolean : Ottoman Empire WW II in Pacific : Dutch, UK

The interesting thing is, that those Civs the AI cannot handle at all are the strongest in the hands of the human player...

6 of the conquest where played with all available Civs in the RBCiv SG series at CFC, at pretty high levels.
Judging from this experience (and my own, I played most of the conquest repeatedly, some of them with ALL Civs, even the normally unplayable ones!), for the human above Emperor:

Mesopotamia :
Easiest: Phoenicia (early contact monopoly, SEA gives an amazing commerce/research bonus in the first era, lots of coastal cities)
Hardest: Medes (UU requires Iron, but the next Iron source is near Sumeria, no coastal city with production)

Rise of Rome :
Easiest: Macedonia (the BIG problem even for Rome is preventing AI Persia to reach the Domination level, and while the Greeks have a tough start, they can cruise to victory after that)
Hardest: Carthage

Fall of Rome :
Easiest: Celts (You're safe. Impossible to loose. Was won on Sid!)
Hardest: None really. Both Romes are hard...

(Mesoamerica: Didn't play that more then once, but Aztecs and Inca are clearly easier then Maya, since their starts are by far better)

Middle Ages :
Easiest: Danes (definitely the strongest Civ if played correctly; won on Deity when the 2nd strongest Civ had about 2500 out of 30000VPs), Byzantium (was won at Sid; also, this is the by far strongest AI Civ, the only one that can really win that)
Hardest: None really; Celts are tough

Age of Discovery :
Easiest: Portugal (Sid)
Hardest: None really. All European Civs are a cakewalk even at Deity, and the Natives are all doable.
Impossible: Iroquois

Napoleonic Europe :
Easiest: France (Sid); Britain and Russia are also fairly easy
Hardest: Prussia; currently trying to win with Sweden on DG, will try Portugal after that - compared to them, Prussia is a cakewalk
Impossible: Dutch

WW2 :
Easiest: Japan
Hardest: China
But all Civs are doable at Sid here. Dutch as well, but you won't contribute much to victory, except occupying and holding VP locations in Commonwealth territory

	15-09-2004 21:13									#72
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Get to Carthage much faster, and it's much easier.

Wiped out the last of the Carthage navy same turn I took over Carthage (Either 300 or 295 BC) (It's Galley was off the coast of Silicy : but couldn't land and I had my own now empty Galleys ready.)

Haven't seen a single War Elephant yet. Worst unit I saw was a NM, and that was no match for Legions I. (I now have Legions II, my troops didn't damage the baracks and so I upgraded them in Carthage the following turn.)

Haven't seen a single War Elephant. That unit might actually require the tech I'm currently reseraching (it was a 2nd Punic War unit after all) that also provides a better mobile unit than standard horsemen, in which case I dought I won't be encountering them at all.

Oh, in middle ages I gave the Rus a very bad GA; they lost all but 2 cities during their GA and would have lost the other two as well in a few more turns if my conquest of them wasn't interupted by reaching the score limit.

Macedon has very bad odds surviving, the Persians have bribed every single civ (with possible exception of Carthage) to declare war on them. Egypt doesn't matter, but Macedon was having a hard enough time just holding off the Persians and will now face Scavian riders on their northern frontier in a few turns as well. (My Legions acting as scouts spoted them.)

Luxary type your refering to North of Macedon is Dyes; I'm getting that from the Persians. It's closest to Goth territory, and my money is on Goth being the first civ to plant a city there.

quote: Originally posted by gunkulator I forgot to mention the other Carthage island with the luxury. Yeah, you want that one too. But in general I don't bother fighting Carthage on their homeland because it's too much of a logistical nightmare. Carthage has a bigger and faster navy for starts. Second, they usually have swarms of War Elephants in Africa to focus on your invasion. They are likely to get their GA from Rome if Rome invades. The barbarians tribes, otoh, only loosely control their lands and have sucky units. You need about 5 Legions (type II or III) plus a few for homeland defense to conquer all of the Celts. The name of the game is land and population and the easiest pickings are to your north.

	15-09-2004 21:23									#73
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Doc Tsiolkovski Age of Discovery : Easiest: Portugal (Sid) Hardest: None really. All European Civs are a cakewalk even at Deity, and the Natives are all doable. Impossible: Iroquois WW2 : Easiest: Japan Hardest: China But all Civs are doable at Sid here. Dutch as well, but you won't contribute much to victory, except occupying and holding VP locations in Commonwealth territory

On Age of Discovery, it's ironic you rated Iroquois as impossible, the AI Iroquois was far more effective keeping the AI europe civs out of NA than either the Incas or Mayas were.

AI English had their head handed to them by the AI Irqouis.

On WW II: I didn't find China hard at all; just mobilize for war on turn 1, forget about non military improvements and just build lots of tanks and inf units and kick Japan out of mainland Asia. Then just hit return a few turns.

	15-09-2004 23:26									#74
	Inflate your Upload Space

I'm not sure why the Aztec AI had so much problems in MesoAmerica myself; replay showed Maya founding a bunch of cities past both minor civs, and then Maya taking one Aztec city after another. If the cultural victory requirements had been higher, the Mayas may have been able to finish wiping out the Aztecs before the game ended.

	15-09-2004 23:50									#75
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Sure, the AI Iroquois in AoD do well, so did we in our SG. However, since the Iros have no access to the cultural/sacrifice techs, it is absolutely impossible to reach the VP limit before one of the Europeans...

China in WW2: As said, they are not difficult, but the other 3 are eaven easier...

	16-09-2004 07:44									#76
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

with regards to Mayan civ in mesamerica. I think in this scenario, the jungle offers better benefits than in the normal game (though I think production is still a problem)

	16-09-2004 08:38									#77
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Who knows the most about the WW2 Pacific scenario?

We (Paddy the Scot, Godking, jshelr and I) are answering a challenge by CFC in PBEM as the US and allied forces, and I would like to enlist advisors... I am new to PBEMs, and haven't really played the Conquests since C3C came out, so all help would be much appreciated!!

The thread in the PBEM forum is:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=122047

	16-09-2004 20:58									#78
	Inflate your Upload Space

In Meso America,

Incas start in jungle along a river, really good start.

Jungle is 2/0/0, can be mined (from turn 1), and can be irrigated (requires a second era tech), and no disase.

This effectively makes jungle like grassland no shield, except it takes 3X as long to improve.

Note that planting a city in jungle still converts it to grassland, and if you really, really wanted to, you could clear the jungle. Bad idea though.

quote: Originally posted by Dissident with regards to Mayan civ in mesamerica. I think in this scenario, the jungle offers better benefits than in the normal game (though I think production is still a problem)

	16-09-2004 21:35									#79
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Okay, I see War Elephants now (turn 21) and partually see your point.

But I still think my tactics in landing in North Africa to Carthage in early game were correct with the exception that the turn after upgrading my forces there to Legionaries II and converting the MGL to an Army I should have abandoded that town and should have also razed the city that didn't autoraize (3rd loss in Carthage for them)

Carthage has now lost five cities in North Africa in all, and I may still have enough forces there to sack more. In the mean time, I did take your advice to ally with the Celts when Celtic units starting attacking me via Celt territory with a RoP and also signed a similar deal with Egypt so they can also engage them in North Africa.

The Celts promptly had a city of there's sacked to the ground by Carthage, but that's okay with me! Their first Gallic Warrior just arrived to the front.

I've also started up the Citizen factories in Italy now that my GA is over and I have several cities stuck at size 6.

quote: Originally posted by gunkulator But in general I don't bother fighting Carthage on their homeland because it's too much of a logistical nightmare. Carthage has a bigger and faster navy for starts. Second, they usually have swarms of War Elephants in Africa to focus on your invasion. They are likely to get their GA from Rome if Rome invades.

	16-09-2004 22:16									#80
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

You definitely want the Celts to act as a buffer between you and Carthage. Those War Elephants are fast and if you don't kiss up to the Celts right away, Carthage will get a ROP and an alliance with them and you'll have 20 turns of Elephant and Gallic Sword attacks on your northern border.

If you really want to attack Cathage, then razing is probably better than holding. I played a ROR game where I tried to attacked Carthage asap with about 10 Legion II's. I had some bad luck with the RNG and got slaughtered after taking the city of Cathage. I lost 7 Legions while Carthage lost only 2 War Elephants (damn retreat!). I ended up abandoning the city. After that it occured to me that I was wasting my time and units on these guys when the northlands are so open and so poorly guarded.

	16-09-2004 23:50									#81
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I agree with Gunk. My first game I took sicily and then took Carthage and a few other cities around there. I tried my best to stay allied with the Celts, but that alliance would come and go. So often I had to split my focus. I stayed allied with the Greeks the whole time, so that helped.

But I just couldn't make any progress with the Carthaginians. With Carthage in my hands, I had enemy on both sides. I pushed east, and after a while I ended up getting all the Cart cities east of Carthage, but it was slow going as they kept hammering me in Carthage. So I spent most of the game conquering half of the Carts. I lost on points to the Persians.

Whereas in the second game I took Sicily, Corsica & Sardinia and just defended them well, then I was able to have a nice, one front war against the Celts. I expanded quickly into the nice land NE of Italy before the Goths or Greeks did. I wiped out the Celts entirely, and was about to start on the Carts in Spain, but then the Greeks declared on me. So I had to move everyone east to deal with them, but it worked out because I wiped them out.

It was a squeaker even then. The Persians had a nice lead on me. I had to really throw everything I had at the Scythians and the Carts, and reached the point threshold like a turn or two before time ran out.

Both games were on Emporer.

	17-09-2004 02:12									#82
	Support Apolyton

War Elephants are no faster than Heavy Calvary, and that's going to be my main offense. Legions II for protecting them.

That remains me, I need to wake up Ceasar Augustus in Rome and assign him 3 Heavy Calvary.

Yes, if your going to strike Carthage with Legions do it before they have War Elephants. Much easier on Monarch level than Emperor. Probably wouldn't work at all on Emperor considering the AI tech rate if the AI wasn't in love with reseraching techs allowing new govts.

	17-09-2004 02:23									#83
	Got spare money?

You know, Rise of Rome victory conditions allows much less room for error than the other conquests.

It's fall back is histographic score, which heavily benifits Persia, and there's no instant elimination mode unlike Fall of Rome / Shogun / Middle Ages, you have to take every single city of a civ that's too far ahead in histographic civ to remove them from the competion. Plus those other conquests VPs are based on unit kills and cities transfering hands, which is also something humans are better at than the AI. [And if wonders were included, I'd be far ahead on those built in Italy during my GA alone.]

(Under Shogun rule, Carthage empire would have instantly collapsed when Hannibal was killed; under middle ages rule, Carthage empire would probably only have 1 King unit left (in New Carthage); under Fall of Rome rules, Carthagan empire would have collapsed the same turn the War Elephants arrived. [That's when I took their 8th city])

I'm still confident that I'll continue my streak, and win this conquest on my first try. I've won several epic games in vanilla on the Emperor level and a couple of epic games with agricultural civs on Demigod, so I'm really playing below my level on all these conquests on Monarch.

I've also won lots of SMAC games on the Transcend level prior to discovering there was a bug giving the humans low cost structure buildings on that level at the patch level I was using.
And I have pulled off the conquer the world (minus one city) + build the space ship on Emperor in Civ 2 and conquered the whole world on Diety level in the Jihad one as Mohamed with plenty of time remaining.

Last edited by joncnunn on 17-09-2004 at 02:30

	17-09-2004 03:25									#84
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Theseus Who knows the most about the WW2 Pacific scenario? We (Paddy the Scot, Godking, jshelr and I) are answering a challenge by CFC in PBEM as the US and allied forces, and I would like to enlist advisors... I am new to PBEMs, and haven't really played the Conquests since C3C came out, so all help would be much appreciated!! The thread in the PBEM forum is: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=122047

Uh, hellllllooooo... a little help, please?

	17-09-2004 04:36									#85
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Sorry, I haven't made it that far. Still working on the Japanese scenario.

I think I've finally got this one set though. I'm the...Ori? Oro? Uro? I dunno, kinda orangish in the middle. I started it just messing around, wanting to see if I could take someone out in the opening turns with my shogun. I didn't. But I harrassed them enough, they never expanded, just built more defense. So I was able to expand into their land and get off to a good start.

I've been competitive with tech for most of the game. I started to slip right around Feudalism. I reckon the AI made better use of the new gov't and had more contacts and could trade more. Soon I was behind. But! Wonder of wonders, I got the Great Library. After that, I was absolutely set.

No need to research, I just churned out cash, switched to war-time mobilization and churned out units. All I have left is the Mori to my south, and I've got a killer stack on the way. I'm bored with taking cities, so I'm just gonna take their cap and let the empire fall. Then I'll expand a bit south, conquer a bit north, and I should be ok.


(except another neighbor built that UN replacement, and beat me in a vote. I'll have to reload and... undo that wonder. )

	17-09-2004 15:45									#86
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn With the Celts two starting workers sold for a song on turn 1 to me, I think the Celts will have a delay hooking up their Iron... (Macedon, Egypt, and Persia each sold a worker to me as well at rock bottom prices; Persia did get a GPT deal for the Spice.) Sorry, but this fortress Silicy tactic strikes me too much like policies of the other major political party in the US and also like certain countries in Europe. I much prefer the take the war to the enemy's homeland. (Carthage in this case.) Only reason I bothered taking the islands first is that they aren't much of a detour. (And Sardena does have a luxary.) The block-in the Macedons is a better idea, but I'm in a Golden Age (you'd have to purposely avoid it playing Rome), Rexing can and should wait til it ends and I've already planted the existing citizens on and near the Southern Alps. (Two along the obvious river locations, another on a hill adj to 2 Iron north east and the remaining one filling out Italy proper.) I have a few legions being used as scouts in that area you mentioned. I actually think the Celts are more likely to expand into that territory than the Macedons because of the locked war between Macedon & Persia, which if the score is accurate, Persia seems to currently be doing better.

You can also get Massilia (Marseilles) in trade from the celts. I'm never sure whether that's an exploit or a legit. tactic.

	17-09-2004 15:57									#87
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by gunkulator I forgot to mention the other Carthage island with the luxury. Yeah, you want that one too. But in general I don't bother fighting Carthage on their homeland because it's too much of a logistical nightmare. Carthage has a bigger and faster navy for starts. Second, they usually have swarms of War Elephants in Africa to focus on your invasion. They are likely to get their GA from Rome if Rome invades. The barbarians tribes, otoh, only loosely control their lands and have sucky units. You need about 5 Legions (type II or III) plus a few for homeland defense to conquer all of the Celts. The name of the game is land and population and the easiest pickings are to your north.

Carthage is a problem but once you have Sicily it's easier. Build a bunch of galleys and take enough units to take and hold Carthage. Then expand out from there. Once you get to Imperialism, cash rushing allows to to use taken cities in Africa to fuel further conquest in a virtuous circle. Carthage quickly crumbles to the point where you can be taken a couple of cities every 2-3 turns. An army is helpful for the bigger cities, but not essential I find. They never seem to have that many Elephants. If you have an army available and hold Spain, take the extreme Western City in Morocco as well.

	17-09-2004 19:52									#88
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I agree taking Cathage is not that difficult.

get Scilily

Take the city of Carthage, fend off the counterattacks and consolidate and reorganize.

Then the rest of north Africa is generally a cake walk.

	30-11-2004 00:34									#89
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Bumped to note victory in Rise of Rome, completing the conquests.

	02-12-2004 06:09									#90
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

cool

I just had to check back in this forum. It's dead lately, hardly that many threads on page 1 anymore. Oh well.