06-02-2004 11:02									#1
	CGN wants to gift us Boston... Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

We have not given them a straight forward answer as of yet. We have been skirting the issue. We need to either tell them "yes" or "no."

This poll asks if we accept Boston when offered by CGN or not.

	06-02-2004 11:09									#2
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mogoose has already declared that unit warping is allowed and legal. This does not require us to declare war on CGN. We can immediately disband the city upon receiving it.

Yes.

	06-02-2004 11:14									#3
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No.

	06-02-2004 11:25									#4
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Map Please ?

	06-02-2004 11:33									#6
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I say do it, but we have to make sure they know that we plan on dispanding it as soon as we get it.

	06-02-2004 11:39									#7
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree mogoose has already declared that unit warping is allowed and legal.

Screw this. If this is the way its going to be, then I am completely in favor of loaning CGN our catapults. If unit warping is allowed and legal in this game we should set aside our personal views on the subject and start thinking of it as a valid tactic.

	06-02-2004 11:57									#8
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disregarding the exploit issue, what is in our long term best interests? A huge costly battle now, or in a few turns + cgn relationship improved (or steady)

I'm leaning towards the former. If we help out CGN, then by the time the ansars arrive at Agincourt, the muskets will tip the scales and massacre the ansars. I'm afraid that CGn will then march unabated towards GWT territory. If the battle is at boston without gunpowder and GWT wins and moves forward, CGN is still in a great position defensively due to city distance and new muskets.

hmm

looking for a stalemate, which is best? Looking for the answer that keeps both sides in full military build up mode the longest. I think for me the answer is letting Boston defend itself now. Would this upset CGN terribly?

	06-02-2004 18:21									#9
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I vote NO, I do not think that we earn anything in long or short term in saying yes. Let CNG move their troop back to agincourt themself.

The battle of agincourt, it does have a nice ring to it. Lets sit back and enjoy ourself.

	06-02-2004 18:53									#10
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I vote.. I dont care.
So long as we abandon it immediately.

I have no idea why CGN would want to warp all of their units home. Does Agincourt have a barracks ?

	06-02-2004 19:18									#11
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree mogoose has already declared that unit warping is allowed and legal. This does not require us to declare war on CGN. We can immediately disband the city upon receiving it. Yes.

well yes but there's a difference between unit warping a whole civ for that civs survival and the warping of units for tactical gain on the battle field as any GoWer will tell you....

As long as GWT don't find out about it then I don't think it can really hurt us???

	06-02-2004 20:21									#12
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If they offer it to us, let's just accept it and destroy it.

--Togas

	06-02-2004 20:29									#13
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What the hell is going on over there? Can't they pull back to Agincourt and rest their units there? What happened to the other border town?

I apparently have some catching up to do. I'll vote later.

-Arrian

	06-02-2004 20:51									#14
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Holy ****, Agincourt's borders aren't expanded. That city needs a library, NOW!. They're up against 3-move Ansars, ffs!

It also needs an aqueduct and to be pop7, preferably pop8 or even 9 (so a couple of cat hits can't easily knock it down to size6).

They need to retreat, burn everything, and do some rushing ASAP.

-Arrian

	06-02-2004 21:22									#15
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Hmmmn I can see that this is in fact very important and very critical to CGN's defences.

Assuming Boston has walls they can keep the pikes and knights fortified in there giving 40 4.5 def units against any ansar only attack. However if GWT move the slow movers adjacent to the city to take out the walls and to use their MI, CGN can hit them with their MI and knights making likely good wins.

However the next turn GWT would then be able to roll over the pikes and injured units with ansars (after taking down the walls with the cats) probably making really good kill ratios.

If they can gift us the city and have the injured units warp before GWT get their go with the slow movers they'll basically have had a turn where they were able to get at the stack with all their offensive units without the ansar consequences.

What's the turn order?

CGN may really need this if they are to survive, although if we were to do something like this GWT would be pretty pissed....

	06-02-2004 21:28									#16
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quote: Originally posted by OPD CGN may really need this if they are to survive, although if we were to do something like this GWT would be pretty pissed....

They would never know. CGN sends accepted, we accept and disband the same turn. The only one who would know other than us and maybe CFC would be mongoose.

	06-02-2004 21:34									#17
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They would suspect. But I think I get it now.

1) GWT moves next to Boston
2) CGN moves all the pikes south via roads, using the last 2 pikes to cut the roads 2 and 22 of Boston.
3) CGN hits the stack with med infs & knights
4) CGN gifts us Boston, we accept, all units warped to CGN's capital.

Does the turn order work?

GWT would suspect, by the way, even if the turn order is such that the gift/abadon happens before either they or CGA sees it.

-Arrian

	06-02-2004 21:35									#18
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Yeah but they'd know something funny had happened when they see there's been a battle and no injured CGN units are left and that all the pikemen are gone too. It would only take an ansar moving along the retreat path to see there wasn't a retreat and that something else must have happened to the units. There's no way they'd believe that CGN had disbanded their units

	06-02-2004 21:44									#19
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When in doubt, blame it on CFC



We could march the pikes out two squares (en masse) and hope that the devastation to their pikes and mi's would prevent stop them from sending more than a scout down (stopping to heal the injured pikes) They don't have the ansars to take out the whole slowmover stack, so I don't think they would assault it at all. And you could explain the 2 square rather than 3 move by the forest defense. Maybe they would think the knights would be one square beyond the pikes? Is this deception worth the possible loss of the pikes? I don't know. Its largely trickery and mind games at this point.

	06-02-2004 22:14									#20
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel When in doubt, blame it on CFC

yeah this is the kind of dirty underhand thing CFC would do

the pikes in the forest would work nicely, alternatively a 1 turn forest build 1 south of the city would be amusing if it didn't loose the workers

One question though, why is there no road out of the city? This looks like a recent pic as the city to the left is gone and the road GWT have been building is visible.

I mean have CGN really pillaged the only way out for their slow movers?

If there is no road we'd kinda have to do the unit warp thing, although I think we should do it anyway as GWT used unit warp to significantly effect our war.... and the unit warp over there of GCA has already affected this war from the city investigations and will likely effect it more if GCA enter the war.
So GWT have already it why shouldn't CGN?

	06-02-2004 22:17									#21
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The screenshot you saw was fully updated as of this turn (we traded maps with CFC, which allows us to see all updated improvements).

I asked miccofl about all those pillaged roads, and he said they wanted to make sure the Ansar would be unable to flank them or race forward in case Boston is abandoned. Though it does look like they're depending on the unit warp now.

	06-02-2004 22:23									#22
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree mogoose has already declared that unit warping is allowed and legal.

Gloves are off then. Do it, and anything else we can to help.

	06-02-2004 22:35									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Trip The screenshot you saw was fully updated as of this turn (we traded maps with CFC, which allows us to see all updated improvements). I asked miccofl about all those pillaged roads, and he said they wanted to make sure the Ansar would be unable to flank them or race forward in case Boston is abandoned. Though it does look like they're depending on the unit warp now.

So perhaps we should be focusing on our excuses for why we're going to do this then....

Either that or start thinking about where to voxodus CGN to...


How about as an excuse something along the lines of, "you used unit warp to significantly change the course of events in a war between poly and GCA, we did the same in a war between GWT and CGN."
Except perhaps with a bit more love thrown in somewhere.

	06-02-2004 23:05									#24
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Heck, the moral highground in this game became irrelevant a long time ago. Do it

	06-02-2004 23:06									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Trip The screenshot you saw was fully updated as of this turn (we traded maps with CFC, which allows us to see all updated improvements). I asked miccofl about all those pillaged roads, and he said they wanted to make sure the Ansar would be unable to flank them or race forward in case Boston is abandoned. Though it does look like they're depending on the unit warp now.

THEY CUT OFF THEIR OWN RETREAT!?!?!?!?



What in the sam hell are they thinking? You pull back and THEN you cut the roads, not the other way 'round!

Un****ingbelieveable.

-Arrian

	06-02-2004 23:09									#26
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Oh, and yeah, at this point, especially given CGN's odd pillaging of their own roads prior to retreat, I say we do it.

HOWEVER, I really think they need some military advice. I'm not the best military mind here at 'poly by any stretch, but it sure seems to me they are mismanaging this war.

Perhaps we say something like "sure, we'll take Boston for the unit warp, but if we do that, will you guys maybe listen to some friendly advice?"

-Arrian

	06-02-2004 23:40									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian THEY CUT OFF THEIR OWN RETREAT!?!?!?!? What in the sam hell are they thinking? You pull back and THEN you cut the roads, not the other way 'round! Un****ingbelieveable. -Arrian

The thing is is that they plan on us or CFC accepting Boston in order to warp the units. With that in mind, why not cut all roads? It keeps the 3 move Ansars from being able to catch up with any units that CGN may have had to leave behind to cut roads at a later date.



Here's a copy of a message sent to CGN by GCA. It seems as though they met in game finally. Miccofl relayed it to me in chat.

quote: May this year be known as the meeting of two great people! The peaceful people of the Gamecatcher Alliance heartily greet the friendly people of Netatolia. We have met. Our galleys have achieved contact on your east coast as we sighted an impressive looking unit near some ancient ruins. We have also sighted more foreign presence there and due to tension between you and that other foreign nation, we have decided to withdraw our naval expedition out of a possible fighting zone. We have no intent on getting involved in whatever hostilities are happening in this region of the world. We ha... (cut off by miccofl) With this official greeting, let me introduce myself. I am Lucky, the President of the Gamecatcher Alliance. We will soon appoint a special site ambassador to your empire. Through him, but also directly to me, you can communicate with the GCA. I hope this short introduction assures you of our goodwill and neutrality in whatever matters you have to decide with the other foreign nation on this new continent. We hope we can achieve a long-lasting, peaceful and prospering relationship between our two nation. Sincerely Lucky

	07-02-2004 00:09									#28
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quote: We ha... (cut off by miccofl)

Whattup with that?

-Arrian

	07-02-2004 00:11									#29
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quote: The thing is is that they plan on us or CFC accepting Boston in order to warp the units. With that in mind, why not cut all roads? It keeps the 3 move Ansars from being able to catch up with any units that CGN may have had to leave behind to cut roads at a later date.

Which means they ASSUMED we would do it. It's just my opinion, of course, but ASSUMING another team will do stuff like that for you strikes me as patently stupid. What happens if Apolyton refuses? Now their retreat route is all ****ed up.

They did this bass ackwards.

-Arrian

	07-02-2004 00:11									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Whattup with that? -Arrian

I think it was a mistake in the copy/paste that miccofl did. I don't think it was intentional.