06-02-2004 22:13									#31
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Is the baby female?

I'd say there's no way of knowing, as that would require rather sophisticated sonogram equipment.

But for the sake of the argument, we'll say yes, it will be a girl. But if the sex wasn't known, that would change your answer?

	06-02-2004 22:13									#32
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Do you think it would be possible for you to phrase this differently?

	06-02-2004 22:14									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov So, do you let the woman abort the baby to save her own life, but end humanity in the process, or force her to carry it to term in the hopes the new child will become a progenitor of the next wave of humanity?

If the baby is 8 months along it's well past viability and can be delivered. False delimas are fun.

	06-02-2004 22:15									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I'd say there's no way of knowing, as that would require rather sophisticated sonogram equipment. But for the sake of the argument, we'll say yes, it will be a girl. But if the sex wasn't known, that would change your answer?

Well... a 1/2 chance of the human race surviving (though I don't know if one female and a dozen males is a viable population, but for the sake of argument I'll assume it is) versus the death of one person... I'd say have the baby.

	06-02-2004 22:15									#35
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quote: Thanks to a massive war/famine/catastrophe, etc., the human race has been virtually wiped out except for a small enclave of humanity. By luck, there is only one woman left and the rest are men. The woman is 8 months pregnant, but is having major complications. There is luckily a doctor who diagnoses the situation as thus: The baby is healthy, but the pregnancy will kill the mother if it continues. The woman will be saved by an abortion, but it will damage her uterus beyond repair and end any reproductive hope. The woman wants to have the abortion to save her life, and the doctor has the means of doing it reasonably safely. So, do you let the woman abort the baby to save her own life, but end humanity in the process, or force her to carry it to term in the hopes the new child will become a progenitor of the next wave of humanity?

Whatever it takes to save humanity.

	06-02-2004 22:16									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Now here's a real toughy for the religionists: Thanks to a massive war/famine/catastrophe, etc., the human race has been virtually wiped out except for a small enclave of humanity. By luck, there is only one woman left and the rest are men. The woman is 8 months pregnant, but is having major complications. There is luckily a doctor who diagnoses the situation as thus: The baby is healthy, but the pregnancy will kill the mother if it continues. The woman will be saved by an abortion, but it will damage her uterus beyond repair and end any reproductive hope. The woman wants to have the abortion to save her life, and the doctor has the means of doing it reasonably safely. So, do you let the woman abort the baby to save her own life, but end humanity in the process, or force her to carry it to term in the hopes the new child will become a progenitor of the next wave of humanity?

Not tough at all, IMO. Even if you want to go down the "ends justifiying the means" route, a single breeding female won't be enough to sustain the species. If she dies and has a girl, you still have a single female, years away from the ability to reproduce, and she may not desire to reproduce, or may be unable to.

There is no guaranteed beneficial result to forcing any particular course of action. Even if there was, you have no right to coerce her own choice. You may try to influence, pray, etc., but it is ultimately her moral choice, and your right to intervene stops short of coercion or the use of force.

	06-02-2004 22:16									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed well, since i think the world would be better off without human kind, i'd either let her abort, or kill all the other males and myself, letting the baby fend for itself. if it survives, it'll be because of divine intervention, and will no doubt later have a virgin birth, and a new covenant will be made between heaven and earth.

Who will the baby mate with? The mom?

	06-02-2004 22:18									#38
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc If the baby is 8 months along it's well past viability and can be delivered. False delimas are fun.

Go easy on him - he's a liberal Yankee, he can't help it.

	06-02-2004 22:21									#39
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obviously, since the baby's survival would be because of divine intervention, the heavenly forces would make the virgin baby bear twins, who will then be named adam and eve...

	06-02-2004 22:21									#40
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quote: Not tough at all, IMO. Even if you want to go down the "ends justifiying the means" route, a single breeding female won't be enough to sustain the species. If she dies and has a girl, you still have a single female, years away from the ability to reproduce, and she may not desire to reproduce, or may be unable to. There is no guaranteed beneficial result to forcing any particular course of action. Even if there was, you have no right to coerce her own choice. You may try to influence, pray, etc., but it is ultimately her moral choice, and your right to intervene stops short of coercion or the use of force.

what stupid, rigid, unbending thinking.

	06-02-2004 22:22									#41
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Bah, I meant to say 6 months, so sue me.

	06-02-2004 22:23									#42
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A litigious liberal Yankee. Figures.

	06-02-2004 22:24									#43
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Well... a 1/2 chance of the human race surviving (though I don't know if one female and a dozen males is a viable population, but for the sake of argument I'll assume it is) versus the death of one person... I'd say have the baby.

So you'd force the mother to die, interesting. And you're not a religionist. Why is the continuation of the human race so important that you'd force the death of the woman? I can understand a religionist's answer to that, but not an atheist's.

	06-02-2004 22:25									#44
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quote: So you'd force the mother to die, interesting. And you're not a religionist. Why is the continuation of the human race so important that you'd force the death of the woman? I can understand a religionist's answer to that, but not an atheist's

Wait, you don't agree?!

	06-02-2004 22:26									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel what stupid, rigid, unbending thinking.

As opposed to deciding you have the right to expend someone else's life without their consent for an unpredictible possible benefit which may or may not even occur?

Sometimes, "flexibility" is no virtue.

	06-02-2004 22:29									#46
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat A litigious liberal Yankee. Figures.

Coincidentally, I did just receive $1.29 as part of a class action lawsuit settlement of which I had no clue I was a part until receiving the check. I don't think it's worth my time to even cash the damn thing.

	06-02-2004 22:29									#47
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Dude, at least that way, you have a shot of saving the species. Without it, you're have nothing. Humanity >>>> rights of one woman.

	06-02-2004 22:30									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Dude, at least that way, you have a shot of saving the species.

Why does saving the species matter enough to effectively murder the woman?

	06-02-2004 22:31									#49
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oh! i know a solution. drive the doctor continually until that mad scientist discovers how to populate the world with CLONES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111

	06-02-2004 22:32									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov So you'd force the mother to die, interesting. And you're not a religionist. Why is the continuation of the human race so important that you'd force the death of the woman? I can understand a religionist's answer to that, but not an atheist's.

Lots and lots and lots of people > one person.

And MtG, about "choice" - do you agree that the government can draft people? And that those people can be ordered to, say "go over the top" where they'll likely die?

	06-02-2004 22:33									#51
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a) I am appalled that you even ask.
b) From reasons of utility. If you kill humanity, there is noone to be happy any more, ever. That's the ultimate anti-utilitarian thing to happen.

	06-02-2004 22:33									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Wait, you don't agree?!

Absolutely not. I have no intention of condemning an unwilling woman to death like that. If she wants the abortion, that's her choice.

	06-02-2004 22:34									#53
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Lots and lots and lots of people > one person.

Those lots of people don't exist yet, there's no guarantee they will exist, so I don't see why they should be considered in the equation.

	06-02-2004 22:36									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel a) I am appalled that you even ask.

Why? Let's say it was just the last enclave of white people, or black people, or whatever. Would they be justified in forcing the woman to die to save their race?

Frankly, I'm appalled you'd force the woman to die unwillingly for the sake of people who don't exist yet.

quote: b) From reasons of utility. If you kill humanity, there is noone to be happy any more, ever. That's the ultimate anti-utilitarian thing to happen.

And you have absolutely no means of knowing this. Evolution has produced intelligent life once, there's no reason whatsoever to think it wouldn't do so again were humans to become extinct.

	06-02-2004 22:39									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Those lots of people don't exist yet, there's no guarantee they will exist, so I don't see why they should be considered in the equation.

There is a 50% chance that they will exist, so if you look at it as a cost-benefit analyses, 50% of those people will exist, statistically. Thus, you still have a significant number of people

	06-02-2004 22:39									#56
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Better question for monotheists:

During the night you recieve a dream in which God tells you you must murder a man in order to save X amount of people. This man is not evil, he does not plan to do anything evil, but he will do something whose reprecussions will bring about X amount of suffering.

Now, you wake up, but are utterly unable to shake the conviction that this is NOT just a dream, but real.

NOW, what do you do? Do you go talk with some religious authority to see what they say? Would you follow their advice if they did? Would you ignore it becuase what is being asked is a crime?

	06-02-2004 22:40									#57
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If she is the only hope for the survival of humanity I'd say F-it, and be as "humane" as possible towards what little is left of humanity. Namely, let her decide.

	06-02-2004 22:42									#58
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker There is a 50% chance that they will exist, so if you look at it as a cost-benefit analyses, 50% of those people will exist, statistically. Thus, you still have a significant number of people

First, that doesn't necessarily hold true, because even if the the child is female there's always the chance that 1) she'll not survive to adulthood, 2) she'll not be able to reproduce herself, and 3) she won't want to reproduce.

Second, you're still talking hypothetical people who don't exist yet vs. living humans who do exist. Why do non-existent people matter more than an innocent woman who is alive and wants to stay that way?

	06-02-2004 22:46									#59
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I suppose my overarching question is why the survival of our species trumps the right of this woman to live. And does that survival apply in other situations, for instance, if the woman wasn't pregnant, just the only one left and perfectly fertile, but refused to breed with the remaining men. Would it be okay to rape her and force her to carry a child to term for the sake of species survival?

	06-02-2004 22:46									#60
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Hey, Gepap, will you step in? He's ok with killing the human race. I hope you aren't one of those.

quote: Why? Let's say it was just the last enclave of white people, or black people, or whatever. Would they be justified in forcing the woman to die to save their race?

No, because that comes out from a racist perspective. humanity will still exist, and that little utility that is the variety is negligble.

quote: Frankly, I'm appalled you'd force the woman to die unwillingly for the sake of people who don't exist yet.

Not just people. Endless generations of people. Billions of people.

quote: And you have absolutely no means of knowing this. Evolution has produced intelligent life once, there's no reason whatsoever to think it wouldn't do so again were humans to become extinct.

That's great, what does it have to do with humans, and your basic goal as an organism to continue the species.