06-02-2004 22:20									#1
	Civ 4 ideas - Straits and Canals Suffering from ads?

I have some simple suggestions that would hopefully make the game more interesting and realistic, without too much complexity.

* There should be a "strait" terrain type, like Öresund (between Sweden and Denmark), the Bosporous (at Istanbul) and the Strait of Gibraltar. Naval units should be slowed down at Straits. Ground units should be able to cross the strait without ships, but that would take several turns. In the late game you should be able to build bridges across straits. This terrain type could also be used to simulate great rivers. Straits would give a good food and commerce output.

* A ship that enters a city with access to more than one body of water should have to return to the same body of water that it came from. But - as technology advances you would learn to build Canals. They would allow ships to pass through them to inland cities or bodies of water. Canals would also give a commerce and shield bonus, like Railroads.

	06-02-2004 22:37									#2
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Your poll needs... bananas.

	06-02-2004 23:19									#3
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I think something like you describe would be great for a modder or for scnearios. It seems pretty complicated to me to get a map generator to do such things, IMHO, though I really have no idea what it requires.

	07-02-2004 03:16									#4
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins Your poll needs... bananas.

This terrain type would be helpful for scenarios, but is it really needed for game purposes?

	07-02-2004 05:34									#5
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Just have straits a la civ2. Simpler to implement. Forcing the computer to remember which side of a city tile a ship is on is like orcing it to remember which side of a river tile a land unit is on. Lots of work for little gain.

I am in favour of a canal as a terrain improvement, which allows ships to enter.

	07-02-2004 19:07									#6
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The point of forbidding a ship to cross an isthmus through a city is to prevent the player from creating a Panama or Suez canal in the early game. Human players are usually better at using this technique to their advantage.

It wouldn't be too hard for a map editor to include straits - just make a map the usual way and add straits at random places where two landmasses are just one water tile from each other.

Last edited by Optimizer on 25-02-2004 at 22:30

	30-04-2004 12:47									#7
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Two aspects I have always found missing: Bridges and Canals

	30-04-2004 13:02									#8
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Sure, why not.

Bridges would indeed be nice.

	10-05-2004 19:37									#9
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What kind of bridges are we talking about here though? A road over a river or a bridge over the English Channel? Yeah to the first, nay to the second.

You know, Civ2 has enough events language in it to have bridge units for scenarios

	10-05-2004 21:54									#10
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Before the tunnel was build, there was a plan to make it a bridge instead of a tunnel.

How long is the bridge connecting Denmark to Holland...

	10-05-2004 23:46									#11
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Leonardo Divinci dreamed of airplanes back in the middle ages, that doesn't mean there should be an airplane unit when you discover invention. You can plan lots of stuff but it isn't always feasible.

Bridges of this size would only be realistically available in the late game, so who really cares?

	11-05-2004 04:00									#12
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There's no bridge between Denmark and Holland, as Germany is between them...

	11-05-2004 14:19									#13
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hi ,

maybe it could become a small wonder , ....

canals , bridges , etc , .... should be included into the terrain editor !

have a nice day

	12-05-2004 18:12									#14
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I think Canals are definitely a good idea as terrain improvement. And if we take the Panama example, not only through flat terrain. But then, if through hills, much more costly to build of course.

The strait thing, I am more reserved about. First because land units in real world can only cross them by building boats. So why should it be different here?

But building underwater tunnels or bridges over straits should definitely be possible. This could be limited to shallow water of course, and would mean workers can go over shallow water, if only when ordered to build a bridge or tunnel. Making this a terrain improvement reserved for shallow waters, I don't think any other limit should be put. Being a costly imrpovement, it's then our problem to decide to invest in a 20 square long bridge or tunnel or rather have a ferry.

But as roads, they could vehicle power supply (see thread on energy: a strategic national issue).

	13-05-2004 09:41									#15
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quote: Originally posted by grap1705 I think Canals are definitely a good idea as terrain improvement. And if we take the Panama example, not only through flat terrain. But then, if through hills, much more costly to build of course. The strait thing, I am more reserved about. First because land units in real world can only cross them by building boats. So why should it be different here? But building underwater tunnels or bridges over straits should definitely be possible. This could be limited to shallow water of course, and would mean workers can go over shallow water, if only when ordered to build a bridge or tunnel. Making this a terrain improvement reserved for shallow waters, I don't think any other limit should be put. Being a costly imrpovement, it's then our problem to decide to invest in a 20 square long bridge or tunnel or rather have a ferry. But as roads, they could vehicle power supply (see thread on energy: a strategic national issue).

hi ,

, as long as tunnels and bridges comes with a tech , and there should be risks with it , a tunnel can flood due to an volcano erruption , etc , .... there should be a max of tiles to be set true the editor and we should be able to decide to have them ingame or not , ....

have a nice day

	29-05-2004 05:53									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Optimizer There's no bridge between Denmark and Holland, as Germany is between them...

I meant this one ( I think )

quote: In 1991 the Denmark and Swedish governments agreed to build a bridge to connect the two countries across Oresund. Later that year the two parliaments ratified the agreement and scheduled the design to be completed by 1994. The 16 km long Oresund link between Sweden and Denmark is now complete. At 6 am on August 14, 1999 the final section of the Oresund bridge was placed in position by the floating crane, "Svanen". Six hours later, Crown Princess Victoria of Sweden and Crown Prince Frederik of Denmark met on the bridge to mark the fact that Denmark and Sweden are linked once more - 7,000 years after the Ice Age when they were landlocked. The project opened to traffic during the summer of 2000. The Oresund Bridge is the world's longest single bridge carrying both road and railway traffic. In the design full advantage was taken of repetition by composing the major part of the bridge of identical spans. The high bridge with its record-breaking cable-stayed span of 490m is designed to harmonize both structurally and aesthetically with the approach bridges. In the construction phase the on-site activities were completed in just 2 1/2 years due to an extensive use of prefabrication and erection of large units.

	01-06-2004 08:12									#17
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canals would be an awesome edition to civ 4...as long as they are simple and basic.

it would be a modern terrain improvement, and a worker would build it in 1 or 2 consecutive terrain tiles. land units would travel across it as if it wasn't there, ships could go through it as if it was all water. basic and simple.

no straits though. too complicated.

bridges would be nice though...

	01-06-2004 12:50									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Ajan canals would be an awesome edition to civ 4...as long as they are simple and basic. it would be a modern terrain improvement, and a worker would build it in 1 or 2 consecutive terrain tiles. land units would travel across it as if it wasn't there, ships could go through it as if it was all water. basic and simple. no straits though. too complicated. bridges would be nice though...

hi ,

if workers start to build them , then we are off for chaos , .... it would be better to make it a small wonder , ....

have a nice day

	01-06-2004 20:09									#19
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I think Canals are a must-have. Like was said above, limit them to no more than 2 tiles long. Straights would be strategically interesting, but I have a feeling it would be a lot of extra work for relatively little end gain.

	01-06-2004 20:40									#20
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Hmm, how long is the longest canal in the world that a battleship can pass? I don't know, but the Soviets built a lot of canals in Russia (which still should be there). OK, these do mostly connect rivers, and battleships can't go above land tiles with rivers, too...

	01-06-2004 20:46									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Max Sinister Hmm, how long is the longest canal in the world that a battleship can pass? I don't know, but the Soviets built a lot of canals in Russia (which still should be there). OK, these do mostly connect rivers, and battleships can't go above land tiles with rivers, too...

hi ,

take a look at denmark and germany , ...

one could sail up to Paris , ....

have a nice day

	24-06-2004 23:51									#22
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we can do it!

	26-06-2004 00:27									#23
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I vote neither is good. The only major through-canals built are on exceptionally narrow stretches of land. The Panama Canal would not be possible without the huge reservoir fed by tropical rainfall. Suez is a sea level canal, no locks are necessary, but there isn't really anywhere else in the world such conditions exist.

I do support the idea of a city being located on a particular coast. A harbor could exist on both sides of an ithsmus with roads or whatnot between such that it is economically one city, but ships could not cross.

Similarly, land tiles touching on corners simulate land close enough for a bridge. Land units can cross by ferry, just as rivers don't stop land units. If you want a "straight" tile type that permits passage of land and water units just like corner tiles, that would be OK.

	26-06-2004 14:37									#24
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It would be nice if major rivers could be navigable - and would tie in the the proposed canals.

	27-06-2004 12:46									#25
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Go hard Optimizer, great ideas

	06-07-2004 00:52									#26
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I wopuld love to see where over the years one could teraform an area of land..say flood an area and then later make it "dredged" maybe with an Corps of Engineer advance.. and then maybe later on say having an advance called "Hydro pumping" or even a terrain improvement called Hydro Pumps where they could be placed every maybe 4 tiles in a floodplain and maybe take 10 turns to fill an area in and then that would make the former flood plain a delta or leveed area...of course one end would have to access to say a large body of water such as an ocean of lake..

Hey..maybe we could have a Dam Built and then after a certain period have enough water stored to fill the ame area....Just geezing i reckon..

Ok..Just thinking outloud is all...

Peace

Gramps

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	06-07-2004 10:38									#27
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I wanted to have bridges since cIv.
Make sure that real long bridges (2+ tiles) should be able to be destroyed.

	06-07-2004 12:11									#28
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Canals!

They weren't in Civ 2 right?

	06-07-2004 15:50									#29
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What about the ability to dredge rivers? Now that, I would like! Of course, there should be a limit to how far upstream you could dredge, and it could be blocked for big ships like Carriers and Battleships, but usable by Subs and Transports. All cities that have a dreged river can build naval units that can use the river. Oh, you can not dredge above a hill. No Vienna building Subs!

Large bridges? Perhaps. As long as they quite limited (2 tile max?), cost a hell to build, and easily destroyable.

What about polders? I feel that they should be v. limited where you could do it. No creating continants out of Fiji!

Canals, yes. But they should be limited to a couple of tiles max. Perhaps they could be used to create a water network in your civ (along with dreged rivers). It could make you less dependant on rail for transport. Again, they must be v. expensive to build.

And finally, Canals were not on Civ II.

Postrcript. Idea of bridge on massive map briging over 2 tiles of water. Obvously, scaled down for smaller maps.

Last edited by Silpy on 08-07-2004 at 15:09

	06-07-2004 16:46									#30
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2 tile bridges? Then we need bigger maps. How long would be such a bridge IRL? 200 miles?!
Polders are good. They should take some time to create, and you could make them only in coast tiles. And if they'd include catastrophies, they could be destroyed very easily.
(In WW2, the Germans destroyed many dikes in Holland, and big parts were flooded. Another idea, since we're talking about Holland: When germany attacked the Dutch 1940, some people suggested to break some dikes and by this way to seperate the most important Dutch cities from the continent (they'd be on an island, after the land was flooded, which would be difficult or impossible to conquer)