07-02-2004 16:06									#121
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick But if that were my kid I would shoot the bastard and hope I got it right.

This was actually put into practice in the UK a few years ago when one of our tabloids (The News of the World) started running a "name and shame" campaign against paedophiles. They used the Sex Offenders List to get pictures and information about convicted sex offenders and started publishing it. The result?

Near mob anarchy. People took justice into their own hands and made a complete **** up of it. Innocent people were wrongly accused and attacked, property was damaged, and the actual paedophiles ended up breaking off their contact with the Government and went underground.

	07-02-2004 16:11									#122
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The problem dealing with those kind of dirty offenders is that most of the government
bodies that are charged with stopping the filthy corruption are actually involved too.

	07-02-2004 17:03									#123
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I find this kind of thing nauseating

	07-02-2004 17:24									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Ghengis: You must agree the Death Penalty doesn't seem to work very well in Mafia games

Works fine in Mafia games. If you kill the Mafia. We just tend to suck at that part.

quote: Originally posted by Agathon That poor kid. I couldn't believe she was only twelve. What on earth were her folks thinking, letting her go out tarted up like that?

Why does this not suprise me. The same advocates of eliminating the Death Penalty also advocate that the scum who murdered this little girl it the victim.

So, its her fault and her parents's fault for dressing her up to go pick up serial killers. I don't see where you get that from the pictures I saw. I didn't see her as a sex object, she just looked like a normal 12 year old girl to me.

I didn't feel any urge to go rape and murder the little girl when I saw the picture. The psycho that did is a pervert that needs to be eliminated from society.

	07-02-2004 18:39									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Oh, and of course, it is a specific deterrant - the person killed can't kill anyone else anymore.

This is, in the end, the one and only justification I can find for the death penalty, but that means it can only be applied very rarely and when there is such a preponderance of evidence as to assure the guilt of the criminal. I'm not talking mere "beyond a reasonable doubt," I'm talking about beyond ANY doubt.

Justice should never, ever be about revenge, it should solely be about protecting society, which is what the entire purpose of our criminal justice system is. We don't lock up theives for revenge, we lock them so they a) won't prey on people while incarcerated and b) will hopefully rehabilitate and become honest members of society.

Now, if have a murderer who is beyond any doubt guilty, and there's every reason to believe he will continue to kill, then perhaps the only solution for society's protection is to remove him from the world. Gacy, Dahmer and Bundy certainly would fit this bill.

So, frankly, I find anyone who approves of the death penalty without caring if it's a deterrant to be rather bloodthirsty and sick. If you only care about revenge, please don't go into criminal law.

	07-02-2004 18:42									#126
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Why does this not suprise me. The same advocates of eliminating the Death Penalty also advocate that the scum who murdered this little girl it the victim.

That's not remotely what he said, and you know it:

quote: Originally posted by Agathon That doesn't excuse the crook at all - he attracts a different kind of blame.

While it my be fun to be dishonest, nobody's fooled by you.

	07-02-2004 18:44									#127
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Stepping into liberal shoes.........

So say if someone kills one person we try to rehabilitate them, theory being it was a fluke or accident.

If they kill more than one person then its not fluke, charge up the electric chair, we're frying psycho brains tonight.

Will that work for ya?

	07-02-2004 19:16									#128
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If someone commits first-degree murder, I think they should go to prison for life, period. So if they catch a guy who commits one such murder, to the slammer forever he goes.

If they catch a guy who has commited multiple murders and it there is indication he will kill again, such as a serial killer, then I can see the DP being applied for society's protection.

Either way, no electric chair. Lethal injection done as quietly as possible. We can hopefully avoid having bloodthirsty animals like you cheering for it.

	07-02-2004 19:32									#129
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The thing that is really sad in this murder is that he was on probation for a crime and on December 30th , a judge REFUSED to give an order to revoke his probation despite the fact that he was violating it. Three years probation for a drug crime despite all of his conviction and having been in jail as recently as 2002 and something like 13 convictions.

Sounds as though a wimpy justice system led directly to this girl's murder - he should have been in jail either for the drug crime or the violation of probation.

From USA Today report:

quote: Smith has been arrested at least 13 times in Florida since 1993. He served 17 months in prison in 2001 and 2002 for heroin possession and prescription drug fraud. Eight days after he got out, he was arrested for cocaine possession and placed on probation for three years. He also got probation for aggravated battery in 1993 and heroin charges in 1999. A state correction official, Joe Papy, said that a probation officer had asked a judge on Dec. 30 to declare Smith in violation of his probation because he had not paid all his fines and court costs. Papy said Circuit Judge Harry Rapkin declined to find Smith in violation, which could have returned him to jail. The judge defended his decision Friday, saying the probation officer never sent him the evidence he requested that Smith had willfully refused to pay. Carlie's family questioned why Smith was allowed to be free. "In my opinion he should have never been out on the street," Carlie's father said.

	07-02-2004 19:38									#130
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Boris Godunov, I actually think your a pro-Death Penalty person there.

The Death Penality is pretty much only handed down to people who are multiple killers or have committed murder in a fashion that shows immense deviancy with the values of society. Like they enjoyed doing it and got a thrill out of it.

I don't think anyone has the electric chair anymore, it was too messy to clean up after the exectutions. With lethal injections you can just zip em up into a carry out bag and toss up into the landfill.

	07-02-2004 19:49									#131
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Just Say No to DP. It doesn't deter. Honestly, how many criminals commit crimes expecting to be caught? It also costs a lot more, with real-world consequences to state and local districts and their budgets (with consequences to their law enforcement budget, too).

The main reason I'm against it is that I don't think the State should have the power to execute it's own citizens. It's only one small step from executing criminals to stifling dissent thru state-sanctioned murder. The DNA tests from Illinois only clinched it for me.

DP

	07-02-2004 20:06									#132
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There's only one way to answer this question. Somebody PM Asher and ask him if the Death Penalty's what's kept him from garroting Agathon with his mouse cord all these years.

	07-02-2004 20:25									#133
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Every Day in America

1 young person under 25 dies from HIV infection.
5 children or youth under 20 commit suicide.
9 children or youth under 20 are homicide victims.
9 children or youth under 20 die from firearms.
34 children and youth under 20 die from accidents.
77 babies die.
157 babies are born at very low birthweight (less than 3 lbs., 4 oz.).
180 children are arrested for violent crimes.
367 children are arrested for drug abuse.
401 babies are born to mothers who had late or no prenatal care.
825 babies are born at low birthweight (less than 5 lbs. 8 oz.).
1,310 babies are born without health insurance.
1,329 babies are born to teen mothers.
2,019 babies are born into poverty.
2,319 babies are born to mothers who are not high school graduates.
2,861 high school students drop out.*
3,585 babies are born to unmarried mothers.
4,248 children are arrested.
7,883 children are reported abused or neglected.
17,297 public school students are suspended.*
* Based on calculations per school day (180 days of seven hours each).
© 2002 Children's Defense Fund

..........................................................

And the death penalty will help in which exact way?

	07-02-2004 20:39									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Docfeelgood http://abcnews.go.com/ here front page

When I clicked on that link I got a story about the baby who died after an operation to remove her second head. I presume that was not the story you were talking about? If it was, then let me asure you that the child had very little chance of survivng with a second useless head attached to its skull. At least the doctor gave her a chance.

You're probably talking about the mechanic who abducted an 11 year old girl right in front of a surveillance camera. I doubt the jury will have mercy upon him. I can't think of any acceptible extenuating circumstances.

	07-02-2004 20:44									#135
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It is a sickening thing to happen, and not as uncommon as we would like them to be. I just can't find any kind of empathy or understanding with this people who would hurt children. I do have a very strong paternal streak which makes it hard to be distant on this issue...but this is the whole thing with sociopathy and ability to relate or comprehend other people and their feelings.

	07-02-2004 20:53									#136
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I view the death penalty from an anthropological perspective. It is like the ancient Aztecs who believed that by sacrifizing people, the sun would rise every day.

In the same manner, today the death penalty serves no function but assuring people that tomorrow it will be another normal working day.

"Everything is fine. The system is good. Continue with business as usual."

The truth is that the death penalty does not deter crime.

	07-02-2004 21:12									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc I view the death penalty from an anthropological perspective.

I view the death penalty from a human perspective. Whoever did this deserves to die.

	07-02-2004 21:21									#138
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I don't deny that he's a waste of cellular conglomerates, but the state should never be allowed to execute a citizen.

	07-02-2004 21:23									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Richelieu I view the death penalty from a human perspective. Whoever did this deserves to die.

I think the point of anthropology is to view things from a human perspective. Yours is purely religious I suspect.

	07-02-2004 21:28									#140
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I am never too sure on execution...I am probably against due to potential miscarriages of justice and the abuse of this concept potentially possible under harsher governments for other crimes, perhaps treason or political dissent if extreme enough. There is never any going back from it. However the cost saved would be extraordinary and believe me I express absolutely no pity if a monster is executed. But if it later transpires they haven't committed the crime, there is no going back.

	07-02-2004 21:29									#141
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What's wrong with revenge? It seems to me that that's the basis of our justice system. In fact, screw the "lethal injection" crap, and make the death more painful the worse the crime.

	07-02-2004 21:30									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc I think the point of anthropology is to view things from a human perspective. Yours is purely religious I suspect.

Nope. I'm an atheist.
What i am saying is that you use anthropology to detach yourself from your emotions. You use it as a filter, a way to interpret these events. I don't. I don't want to. I am outraged and it's perfectly natural that i would be and that anyone should be. That's what i consider to be the human perspective.

	07-02-2004 21:36									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison I express absolutely no pity if a monster is executed.

Neither do I, but these days it's hard to tell if the person is truly a 'monster' or a person in the wrong place at the wrong time.

	07-02-2004 21:53									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Richelieu Nope. I'm an atheist.

My bad. Sorry.

quote: What i am saying is that you use anthropology to detach yourself from your emotions. You use it as a filter, a way to interpret these events. I don't. I don't want to. I am outraged and it's perfectly natural that i would be and that anyone should be. That's what i consider to be the human perspective.

Yes but that is the subjective human perspective. That is what you exclusively believe. In case of justice I would be concerned if it was to be based on emotion. It should at least attempt to work towards some scientific or scholarly understanding.

Also I know neither the man accused of the crime, nor the victim, and hence I do not have the capability of true empathy. If I should feel empathy towards all people who are treated wrongly, then life would be unbearable. People feel an all-encompassing ideal empathy towards humanity as a whole, and a real one towards the people you know, or you momentarily pass in life.

I do not believe for one second that anyone feel any real empathy towards just exclusive victims they have heard of or read about. This is sentimentalism, which is something entirely different. Or it might be that television is now capable of transmitting its emotive fascism to the masses.

	07-02-2004 22:30									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Starchild Near mob anarchy. People took justice into their own hands and made a complete **** up of it. Innocent people were wrongly accused and attacked, property was damaged, and the actual paedophiles ended up breaking off their contact with the Government and went underground.

I thought that moost people are just reacting emotionally to this -- I doubt anyone would seriously support a mobocracy.

But now that you have given a real example . . . . .

	07-02-2004 22:48									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Theben Neither do I, but these days it's hard to tell if the person is truly a 'monster' or a person in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I think catching him on camera lessens that possibility, don't you?

	07-02-2004 23:20									#147
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I think catching him on camera lessens that possibility, don't you?

In this instance, yes.

	07-02-2004 23:29									#148
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Because they didn't get rid of the Death Penalty until they had killed all the genetically defective serial killers from their Gene Pool.

"Genetically" defective?

	07-02-2004 23:34									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Theben Neither do I, but these days it's hard to tell if the person is truly a 'monster' or a person in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Oh absolutely, hence my 'no' to the death penalty. My statement was referring to a very black and white situation, which in reality, never exists...

	07-02-2004 23:41									#150
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But them in some hole, infect them with some disease and let them (literally) rot. Might get the rest to think twice.

And whoever disagrees with this is a wussy!