07-02-2004 11:41									#1
	Longer-Term Strategy: Preparing for possible attack Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Zargon, Sharpe, UnO and I were all in chat and came up with some plans during and after the finish of the turn.

Summary of the basic plan:

Iron: We cut iron next turn and Buffet starts building warriors, assisted by Wonton once it gets its current build finished. We want to build approximately 10 warriors; the goal is 15-20 swords (or warriors ready to be upgraded). We also need lots of catapults, many more than we do now, so that we can have good odds attacking Legions (or if necessary Hoplites; see Alliances); We need to keep building Horses too. They could be useful even before Riders.

Military Production: UnOrthOdOx wants 5 major military production centers plus five more non-producers that have barracks; for those 5 military production centers we currently have Buffet and Chop Suey, plus Wonton and Sweet & Sour are finally adding themselves to the list now that they're at a decent pop size. Char Shu can contribute cats, or possibly build a barracks and HPed units. And the N-N-N-N site could contribute some cats as well. Egg Roll can easily be converted to a major military producer, but it would be preferable to build a wonder there. Beyond those listed, we really don't have many good sites, though Schezuan and MGGP may be able to contribute some catapults in between other builds.

Wonders: I think we agree on building a wonder in Egg Roll. UnOrthOdOx would like Sun Tzu's, but I think most of us are against that and would prefer Leo's anyway if it is obtainable. But then, I think all of us would like Leo's; the question is whether we can get it.

Alliances: We suspect there may be an alliance between Sunshine and and LL. If so, this is bad; facing two teams at once would be bad, two teams who both have 3-defense UUs would be very bad. (However, from what Togas has just said, Sunshine either has no alliance or is lying.)

Republic: We should be ready to switch to Republic in 10-15 turns; happiness under Rep will be maintainable as long as we use 10% lux on the slider. However, we may run in to WW if we are attacked or, even worse for WW, attack someone. There's also the matter of unit maintenance under Republic; despotism currently supports our units for free.

I think that's about it. I don't think this can really be called a summary now that I look at it.

Full log part 1:

quote: ***Note: Some small edits of unrelated material, like the finishing turn moves and IRC ghosts [21:55] [Sharpe] we cut the iron next turn? [21:55] [Sharpe] unless we are upgrading Salt that is [21:56] [UnOrthOdOx] YES!!! cut iron [21:56] [Kloreep] Whoops, I forgot about that [21:56] [Kloreep] Yeah, we can cut the iron next turn; Buffet will be ready to do warriors after the worker [21:56] [Kloreep] Might as well keep Salt where he is then [21:56] [Sharpe] actually we can get Salt to cut the iron [21:56] [Sharpe] oops, forgot no barracks in KungPao [21:56] [Kloreep] Not in time if we want to start right now, I think [21:56] [UnOrthOdOx] why did we get HBR anyway, damnit... [21:57] [UnOrthOdOx] we could be building warriors and chariots... [21:57] [Sharpe] deal with LL wasn't it? [21:57] [Kloreep] UnO: I actually don't remember now [21:57] [UnOrthOdOx] Man, wish I had been payin attention back then. [21:58] [UnOrthOdOx] That's last on my priority, usually. [21:58] [Sharpe] hmm, we will end up with about 695 gold stored up by the beginning of next turn [21:58] [ZargonX] yes, let's do the iron cut soon [21:59] [ZargonX] and start pumping out some warriors [21:59] [Kloreep] Zargon and UnO: Just when do you think we should do the cut? I'm fine with next turn, or even now [21:59] [Kloreep] Buffet can start doing 1-turn warriors next turn [21:59] [Kloreep] Zargon, UnO and Sharpe that is [21:59] [Sharpe] we may need a lot of warriors - I suspect that LL may have as many as 40-50 warriors [21:59] * ZargonX2 has joined #tabemono [22:00] [Kloreep] 40-50... maybe if they've only been building warriors [22:00] [Sharpe] err I didn't see Zargon crash... [22:00] [Kloreep] They'd still need the cash to upgrade them though [22:00] [Sharpe] warriors and settlers yeah [22:01] [Sharpe] with Leo's 40 warriors would only need 800 gold, 50 =1000 gold [22:02] [Kloreep] MZ just finished the GoW save [22:02] [Kloreep] I suggest we talk to him about what LL is researching in the MA [22:02] [UnOrthOdOx] By the time they get leos, though I won't be worried about it anymore [22:03] [Kloreep] By the time they get Leo's we should have Riders [22:03] [Kloreep] Or at least the capability to get them [22:03] [Kloreep] Hmm, if we cut iron we'll be vulnerable to not being able to upgrade [22:03] [Sharpe] I bet LL is doing Feudalism [22:03] [Kloreep] We should make sure we have a worker in the area [22:03] * ZargonX2 is now known as ZargonX [22:03] * ChanServ sets mode: +o ZargonX [22:03] [Kloreep] We can send down Smith [22:04] [ZargonX] keep smith as part of the garrison, I'd suggest [22:04] [Kloreep] Or have him road the area [22:04] [UnOrthOdOx] I'ld stick with the original plan of 20-30 warriors then hit the horsies hard for Riders. [22:04] [Kloreep] We could use a road SE of Kung for example [22:04] [Sharpe] agreed re worker - also might want to start creeping our cities toward the other iron just in case [22:04] [ZargonX] true [22:04] [Kloreep] We have 4 swords now [22:05] [Kloreep] Plus 2 warriors that are pretty much guaranteed to survive to upgrade, and two more that probably will [22:05] [Kloreep] So assume 7 swords/warriors already I guess [22:05] [Kloreep] That's 13 warriors to get to 20 [22:05] [Kloreep] Buffet should be able to do that, though our horse production will definitely suffer [22:05] [ZargonX] how fast can Buffet spit them out? [22:06] [UnOrthOdOx] We need to be getting some more troop producers online too, guys. [22:06] [UnOrthOdOx] More barracks. [22:06] [Sharpe] 1 warrior per turn at Buffet [22:06] [Kloreep] 1 warrior per turn in Buffet [22:06] [Sharpe] we really have to stop this Kloreep [22:06] [Kloreep] hehe [22:06] [Kloreep] I think Wonton will get up to 5 spt shortly; it could then do a warrior every 2 turns [22:07] [ZargonX] that's definately good but, like UnO says, we should get a few more cities military-oriented [22:07] [Sharpe] though I used at while you used in [22:07] [UnOrthOdOx] I'm not ashamed to say you guys have me a bit panicked. [22:07] [Kloreep] UnO: because of the state of military production or because of the repetition? [22:07] [UnOrthOdOx] Military. [22:07] [Kloreep] Yeah [22:07] [UnOrthOdOx] This is an orderly chatroom compared to GoW [22:08] [Kloreep] Another option: Make Egg Roll a military city [22:08] [Kloreep] We could share more of the bonus grasses around and/or try to get to 15 spt for 2 turn horsies [22:08] [Kloreep] But that leaves us without a wonder ctiy [22:08] [UnOrthOdOx] Nothing any of you ever do will compare to Uber, GF, Aggie, MZ, Don, and me getting into it. [22:08] [Sharpe] or a city to build some buildings [22:08] [Kloreep] I think we're okay on buildings at this point [22:08] [ZargonX] I think Wonton would be a good mil city for now [22:09] [Kloreep] Yeah, Wonton will help out military [22:09] [Kloreep] *militarily [22:09] [UnOrthOdOx] I would appreciate 5 dedicated military cities and 10 total with barracks. [22:09] [Sharpe] well not only are we builders - we are also more civilized in our behaviour [22:09] [Kloreep] UnO: 10 with barracks may be difficult [22:09] [Kloreep] We already have 3 dedicated military cities at least [22:10] [Kloreep] No, 4; I forgot Chop Suey [22:10] [UnOrthOdOx] Yeah, get me the 5, and we'll work towards the 10. [22:10] [UnOrthOdOx] Not needed right away, and maybe not at all if you guys can builder me Sun Tzu's [22:10] [UnOrthOdOx] That would trigger GA too... [22:10] [Kloreep] Char Shu is technically a 5th, but it's just going to do catapults and is currently getting its population up and running [22:10] * Kloreep slaps Sun Tzu's around with cheap barracks [22:10] [UnOrthOdOx] mmm...Char Shu. [22:11] [ZargonX] well, the cat city doesn't need a barracks, so that helps [22:11] [Kloreep] I would prefer a different wonder [22:11] [UnOrthOdOx] This forum makes me hungry. [22:11] [Sharpe] well this is the food team , what do you expect [22:11] [Kloreep] So, you have 4 of your 5 UnO. 5 of 5 counting Char Shu [22:11] [Kloreep] And Sweet & Sour and Wonton are just getting into full production swing as their pops grow [22:12] [UnOrthOdOx] That's not counting my catapult camp, right? [22:12] [Kloreep] Char Shu is the catapult camp [22:12] [Kloreep] So 4 not counting it [22:12] [Sharpe] Schezuan is also building catapults ATM [22:12] [ZargonX] brb; baking is done, now time to clean it up [22:12] [Kloreep] Hmm... [22:13] [Kloreep] Re: Schezuan, it is doing a cat now, but it's going to be busy with workers a lot of the time [22:13] [Kloreep] Here's an idea: [22:13] [Kloreep] Build a city N-N-N-N of Buffet [22:13] [Kloreep] Have it build cats [22:13] [Kloreep] Have Char Shu build a barracks and HPed units instead [22:13] [Sharpe] so we get Republic from MAST in 7 or 8 turns - we might want to arrange a Literature trade with LL if we can before then [22:14] [UnOrthOdOx] That'd work. a Cat city only needs 2 forrest tiles [22:14] [Kloreep] Yep [22:14] [Sharpe] yeah, a city N-N-N-N of Buffet should be somewhat productive [22:14] [Kloreep] And with Digger chopping, there'd initially be a grass available for it so it could grow to pop 2 in 10 turns [22:15] [UnOrthOdOx] With 20 warrior/swords, walls/size7 cities, and 10-20 cats, I'll take on even 50 legions happily on a defensive front. [22:16] [Sharpe] hmm, another future possibility is another city N-N of the proposed city (W of the fish) , that should have corruption only a little worse than MGGP [22:16] [Kloreep] Size 7 in Kung is a tall order [22:16] [Kloreep] We can build walls, but an aqueduct will take a long time [22:16] [Kloreep] I think we can give you the rest though [22:16] [UnOrthOdOx] Yeah, walls where it's better. [22:17] [Kloreep] So, switch Char Shu to barracks? [22:17] [UnOrthOdOx] Actually, Walls everywhere if you can swing it, and don't mind that little...exploit... [22:17] [Kloreep] That exploit has been removed [22:17] [Kloreep] So unless our enemies are using PTW 1.21... [22:17] [UnOrthOdOx] Ok. Thought it was C3C that removed it. [22:18] [Sharpe] actually the Great wall is a good wonder for us - as it would give us our GA as well plus it is cheap [22:18] [Kloreep] No, fortunately/unfortunately it was removed in the last PTW patch [22:18] [Kloreep] The GW would be a good last resort [22:18] [UnOrthOdOx] I'ld prefer Sun Tzu's to GW personally. [22:18] [Kloreep] But I'd prefer to see our GA triggered by either Leo's or a Rider [22:18] [UnOrthOdOx] Even with cheap barracks. [22:18] [Sharpe] Leo's will be difficult [22:18] * Kloreep slaps Sun Tzu's around with cheap barracks [22:18] [Kloreep] [22:19] [UnOrthOdOx] -1 upkeep per city... [22:19] [Kloreep] Yeah, I'm sure at least one other team will be going for Leo's [22:19] [Sharpe] but not impossible unless LL gets invention quickly [22:19] [Kloreep] UnO: -1 upkeep wherever we'd build barracks [22:19] [Kloreep] That's probably -10 or -15 upkeep [22:19] [UnOrthOdOx] Barrack that can't be bombarded away... [22:19] [Sharpe] we should try to arrange a feudalism for engineering trade with Sunshine if we can [22:19] [Kloreep] More eventually, but I'd rather not sink 600 shields for that [22:20] [Kloreep] Yeah [22:20] [UnOrthOdOx] And instantly in captured LL cities... [22:20] [Kloreep] Or get LL to research it [22:20] [Kloreep] Speaking of which, shall we chat with MZ for a bit? [22:20] [UnOrthOdOx] That's why I like it is for the offensive... [22:20] [Kloreep] I want to know what LL is researching, and see if we can suggest Engineering [22:20] [Sharpe] no, if we traded with Sunshine, then LL would be forced to research both techs while we only had to do one [22:20] [UnOrthOdOx] certainly [22:21] [Kloreep] Sharpe: But LL is researching Mono, a prereq of Chiv [22:21] [Sharpe] they are? [22:21] [Sharpe] Sunshine is you mean [22:21] [Kloreep] If we get LL to do Eng, we trade Feud to them for Eng, and Feud to Sunshine for Mono [22:21] [Sharpe] true [22:21] [Kloreep] Eng was Sunshine's free tech, Mono is what they're researching [22:21] [UnOrthOdOx] Where you want to chat with him? [22:21] [Sharpe] the feast room [22:22] [Kloreep] #feast [22:22] [Sharpe] Zargon is likely still cleaning up [22:22] [Kloreep] So are we agreed on suggesting Engineering if they don't have any strong plans? [22:22] [Sharpe] we can try it at least [22:22] [Kloreep] Yeah, we can't do anything more than suggest [22:22] [Sharpe] perhaps we can use Literature as a lure [22:23] [Kloreep] Anything except dangle Feud in their faces that is [22:23] [Kloreep] true, we still need to strike a Lit deal with them [22:23] [ZargonX] I'm back, and coming to the feast [22:23] [Kloreep] We could include Lit in exchange for some gold or even IOUs [22:23] [Sharpe] yeah [22:23] [Kloreep] I've opened a private chat with MZ, but no response yet [22:23] [UnOrthOdOx] So, we going to ask about the MPP then as well? [22:24] [Kloreep] Sounds good [22:24] [ZargonX] yes, let's [22:24] [UnOrthOdOx] He's not active in the GoW room either. [22:27] * UnOrthOdOx is now known as UnO_AFK [22:27] [Sharpe] I was wondering if we should change KungPao to barracks to allow us to continue to upgrade our warriors? [22:28] [Sharpe] though admittedly it won't work for this iron cutting [22:29] [ZargonX] I would like a barracks in KP sooner rather than later [22:29] [Kloreep] I haven't actually ended the turn yet [22:29] [ZargonX] well, how much time would a barracks take? [22:29] [Kloreep] We could switch to a barracks at have it in 15 [22:30] [Sharpe] as opposed to walls in 5 [22:30] [Kloreep] We could also have it in 15 by finishing the walls and then chopping for the barracks with Smith [22:30] [Sharpe] that sounds interesting [22:30] [ZargonX] hmm... that would be doable, in my opinion [22:30] [Kloreep] Walls then [22:31] [ZargonX] walls and barracks are the makings of a nice military town [22:31] [Sharpe] yeah, we now have 4 forests in KungPao now [22:31] [Sharpe] oops, sorry 3 [22:33] [Kloreep] 4 actually [22:33] [Kloreep] And more in choppable distance

	07-02-2004 11:42									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Full log part 2:

quote: [22:37] [Kloreep] Hmm, no response from MZ [22:37] [Kloreep] I hope he's not avoiding us [22:37] [Kloreep] That would be a very bad sign indeed [22:37] [ZargonX] yes, definately [22:37] [ZargonX] they still haven't said anything about the islands, have they? [22:37] [Kloreep] Nope [22:37] [Sharpe] hmm [22:38] [ZargonX] well, as long as they don't invade in the next 15 turns, I think we'll be in good shape... [22:40] * MasterZen has joined #tabemono [22:40] [MasterZen] you guys always catch me right when I'm about to leave :P [22:42] [Kloreep] Turn report posted [22:42] [Kloreep] Hi MZ [22:42] [ZargonX] heya, MZ! [22:43] [Kloreep] We were wondering two things: [22:43] [Kloreep] Would LL be interested in a MPP? [22:43] [Kloreep] And what are you guys researching next? [22:45] [MasterZen] 1) maybe [22:45] [MasterZen] 2) I have no clue, I've been awol for a while [22:45] [MasterZen] IIRC we're hoarding gold until we get to the medieval age [22:45] [MasterZen] after Const [22:47] [Kloreep] Would WIA be a better person to talk to then since you've been away? [22:47] [ZargonX] hasn't WIA been away as well? [22:47] [UnO_AFK] WIA's been gone as well AFAIK [22:48] [Kloreep] Yeah, he has been [22:48] [MasterZen] he's back [22:48] [MasterZen] I saw him in the ISDG chat today [22:48] [UnO_AFK] Yeah, he got back home today. [22:49] [UnO_AFK] Or got internet today [22:49] [MasterZen] ok, gotta run [22:49] * MasterZen is now known as MZ[Away] [22:49] [Sharpe] k thanks for coming [22:50] [MZ[Away]] I'll take it back to the team [22:50] * MZ[Away] has left #tabemono [22:50] [UnO_AFK] Ok. [22:50] [Kloreep] I'm becoming a little suspicious [22:51] [Sharpe] me too [22:51] [Sharpe] I think when LL's attack comes - we are the target [22:51] [Kloreep] He said he would PM me about what they were researching when I tried to talk to him just as the Superbowl was starting, but I never got one [22:51] [UnO_AFK] I'm not concerned as long as Sunshine is not an ally. [22:51] [Kloreep] I thought he just forgot, but could be it was intentional [22:52] [ZargonX] [ZargonX] he said they were hoarding gold... implying they weren't actively researching? [22:52] [Kloreep] He added "after Const" a moment later [22:52] [Kloreep] But a moment later [22:52] [ZargonX] ah [22:52] [ZargonX] riiight... they don't have lit, do they... [22:52] [UnO_AFK] All we can do is prepare. [22:52] [Kloreep] It wasn't in his original sentence; I'm worried it may have been a slip-up [22:52] [Kloreep] And if it is, I'd say that indicates they're allied with Sunshine [22:53] [Kloreep] That, or MAST is lying to us and is really researching Rep, but I don't see what they have to gain allying against us [22:53] [UnO_AFK] Sunshine's job will be to pillage [22:53] [ZargonX] if Sunshine is giving them Constr., that's nothing but bad for us... [22:53] [Sharpe] yeah [22:53] [Kloreep] Zargon: Not anything bad for us if it's just a tech deal [22:54] [Kloreep] But since that would mean LL was bothering to lie to us and hide their gold-hoarding, I suspect it would mean a deeper deal [22:54] [ZargonX] exactly [22:54] [Sharpe] admittedly Sunshine did inquire about a MPP deal - maybe when we didn't respond immediately they went to LL and got it from them [22:54] [Kloreep] Best case scenario I see now (not all that good, but okay) is that the actual target of the alliance is MAST, and they just don't want us telling MAST [22:55] [Sharpe] we should get that MPP from sunshine soon then [22:55] [Sharpe] and see if they say no or not [22:55] [Kloreep] I won't rest any easier getting a MPP from Sunshine, but I still think it's a good idea [22:55] [UnO_AFK] See what they say, make us more attractive... [22:56] [ZargonX] when Togas comes back, I will try chatting with im [22:56] [ZargonX] *him [22:56] [Sharpe] if they say no, we will have do go all out on the military buildup [22:56] [ZargonX] do we want to put a time limit on it? [22:56] [UnO_AFK] All we know are legions are comming somewhere. [22:57] [UnO_AFK] give me those 10 barracks, and we'll show em [22:57] [Kloreep] [22:57] [Sharpe] yep, that is nearly for certain re the legions - and a LOT of them [22:57] [ZargonX] maybe some of those LL warriors coming home will get picked off by the barbs.. [22:57] [ZargonX] one can hope [22:58] [UnO_AFK] We can handle the legions, i'm more concerned of hoplites pillaging frankly. [22:58] [Sharpe] the truth is - all someone has to do to severely damage us is to capture our eastern area and part of our core [22:58] [UnO_AFK] They can't have enough boats AND warriors to land a whole mess at once. [22:58] [Kloreep] Yes, we're vulnerable [22:58] [Kloreep] We do have a slight buffer padding at Kung Pao though [22:59] [UnO_AFK] But, placing warriors along the coast wouldn't be a bad idea. [22:59] [Kloreep] Hoplites shouldn't be too hard to handle re: pillaging unless that's all they've been building [22:59] [UnO_AFK] That's what I'ld do, frankly... [22:59] [Kloreep] Yes, probably so would I [22:59] [Sharpe] I think we shouldn't bother with the 3rd city on that island for a while - will be giving LL a city or wasting one of our settlers [22:59] [Kloreep] But with enough catapults, we can take 'em done before they reach important terrain [23:00] [Kloreep] Yeah, agreed re: 3rd city [23:00] [Kloreep] Port Sushi will serve as an early warning for boats coming from the north though, that was a good investment [23:00] [Sharpe] agreed [23:00] [ZargonX] yes, definately [23:00] [UnO_AFK] Yeah, cats are probably the most important part. [23:00] [Sharpe] I suspect though that the main attack will come from Lolita [23:00] [ZargonX] ok, I'm trying to talk to Togas now [23:01] [UnO_AFK] I'ld prefer 20 cats and 15 warriors to the other way around. [23:01] [Sharpe] he's back? [23:01] [Kloreep] We need to get another galley down to the south coast as an early warning there [23:01] [ZargonX] no, but he just says Idle, so he might be around somehwere... [23:01] [Kloreep] And thanks to UnO, we have that galley being produced next turn [23:01] [UnO_AFK] I'ld even chance throwing horsies at 1 HP legions/hoplites [23:01] [Sharpe] yeah, should we pick up that warrior on the island? [23:01] [Kloreep] Most certainly if they're down to 1 HP [23:01] [Kloreep] Horses can retreat [23:02] [Kloreep] Though it would still be chancy in mountains [23:02] [UnO_AFK] how many turns for Buffet to build a cat? [23:02] [Kloreep] UnO: 2 [23:02] [Sharpe] yep, we have seen the power of horses vs mercs in the ISDG [23:02] [Kloreep] But if it comes down to warriors and cats over horses and spears, we shouldn't turn Buffet to cats [23:03] [Sharpe] should we consider building more pikes when they are available? [23:03] [Kloreep] There are other cities like Sweet & Sour that can build cats more efficiently than they can build warriors [23:03] [Kloreep] Those are the ones that should switch if we need more cats [23:03] [UnO_AFK] I'm thinking horses might actually be a better investment with more cats as opposed to warriors. [23:04] [UnO_AFK] I still want 10 more warriors, though. [23:04] [Kloreep] Buffet can do that easily [23:04] [UnO_AFK] But stopping there and going cats/horsies [23:04] [Kloreep] We can do horses and cats in the rest [23:04] [Kloreep] Sharpe has a point though, what about Pikes? [23:04] [Kloreep] We do currently have 19 spears though [23:04] [Kloreep] And a fair amount of those should be re-deployable to our borders once the barb invasion is through [23:04] [UnO_AFK] I'm not big on defenders. [23:05] [Sharpe] having 10 pikes at KungPao with hills and walls would really punish any invasion force [23:05] [Kloreep] 10 pikes would be a good goal [23:05] [Kloreep] 10 pikes backed by about as many cats [23:05] [ZargonX] ok, so the worker in Buffet is done in 2? [23:05] [ZargonX] or 1 now? [23:05] [Kloreep] That would make it hurt to take the city, forcing them to try to go around [23:05] [Kloreep] Then we just need enough cats and offensive units to take them down when they try to [23:05] [Kloreep] Zargon: Worker in Buffet is done in 1 [23:05] [Sharpe] hehe [23:05] [Kloreep] Next turn [23:06] [ZargonX] ok, so worker in Buffet next turn, simulaneously cut the iron [23:06] [Kloreep] Sunshine can bypass Kung though, let's be aware [23:06] [ZargonX] next 13 turns, Buffet puts out a warrior [23:06] [ZargonX] switch Wonton over, and it builds one every two, right? [23:06] [Kloreep] Wonton isn't quite there [23:06] [ZargonX] how soon? [23:06] [Kloreep] Hmm, wait, it is there [23:06] [Sharpe] phew, just caught myself from repeating Kloreep again [23:06] [Kloreep] grows next turn [23:06] [ZargonX] good [23:07] [UnO_AFK] I think just 10 turns in Buffet, and having the rest do horse and cats is the better option, Zargon [23:07] [Kloreep] It's currently building a horse though [23:07] [ZargonX] so, in 14 turns, we'll have 21 warriors to upgrade [23:07] [Kloreep] We should probably finish the horse before doing warriors in Wonton [23:07] [ZargonX] ok, 10 turns of warriors gives us 15 [23:07] [Sharpe] hmm, I will feel a lot better if we can get an ally [23:07] [ZargonX] it always feels better to have an ally [23:07] [Kloreep] Hmm, what should I put in my save sent post? [23:08] [Kloreep] Just lots of party-type emoticons I guess [23:08] [UnO_AFK] Our goal on defensive war will be to let the cats do the work. [23:08] [Sharpe] LL may have pursuaded Sunshine that we are going to attack them [23:08] [Kloreep] Ooh, and [23:08] [Sharpe] or Sunshine may have been worried about that themselves [23:09] [UnO_AFK] On talking to Sunshine: [23:09] [UnO_AFK] We know legions are comming [23:09] [UnO_AFK] We suspect we are the target [23:09] [UnO_AFK] We don't want their land, would like to make it offensive later. [23:09] [Sharpe] if we fall, the whole continent is in danger from a superpowerful LL [23:10] [UnO_AFK] Perhaps offer the REX your neighbor as an option [23:10] [ZargonX] they may also be fearing riders... [23:10] [Sharpe] and superagressive LL [23:10] [UnO_AFK] Make us the more attreactive ally for them. [23:10] [ZargonX] which, actually, we can point out that the terrain makes riders far less dangerous than legions [23:10] [Sharpe] yeah [23:10] [ZargonX] there can be no such thing as a lightening blitz from us into Sunshine [23:11] [Sharpe] how can we convince them that we aren't a threat to them though [23:11] [Kloreep] UnO: Why say we don't want their land? We do [23:11] [ZargonX] :shhh: [23:11] [Sharpe] eventually [23:11] [UnO_AFK] I'ld rather have LL's personally [23:11] [Sharpe] we still have plenty to develop ourselves [23:11] [ZargonX] I'd rather have it all [23:11] [Kloreep] Oh, I thought you were talking about LL's land [23:11] [Kloreep] [23:09] [UnO_AFK] We don't want their land, would like to make it offensive later. [23:11] [Kloreep] No, we must definitely don't want Sunshine's land. [23:12] [UnO_AFK] How do we convince them we're not a threat? Offer settlers and workers [23:12] [Kloreep] Yes, I like the offer pop units option [23:12] [Kloreep] Assuming this is all post-war pop units [23:12] [Sharpe] we can certainly offer the use of our workers at 2x speed [23:12] [Kloreep] We can't offer _too_ much, but we can certainly lend them a few workers and settle a few cities for them [23:12] [UnO_AFK] On the workers, we can't chop jungle in their territory [23:12] [Kloreep] Why not? [23:12] [Kloreep] The game doesn't allow it? [23:12] [UnO_AFK] Learned that in the PTWDGI [23:12] [Kloreep] Ugh [23:12] [UnO_AFK] Nope. [23:12] [Kloreep] That's not good [23:13] [Sharpe] interesting, didn't know that [23:13] [Kloreep] I guess we do everything else then [23:13] [Kloreep] While they chop jungle [23:13] [UnO_AFK] Yeah, that through a few plans off kilter early. [23:13] [Sharpe] they don't have any territory in the jungle yet do they? [23:13] [UnO_AFK] RP would have been attacked a bit earlier. [23:14] [Kloreep] Sharpe: they do have some [23:14] [Kloreep] But it's true, they could delay their city founding while we chop [23:14] [Sharpe] we should tell them that half of our army is spears perhaps? [23:14] [Kloreep] Or the cities we chop around could be the ones we gift to them [23:15] [Kloreep] Sharpe: I think better not to, in case they are in cohorts with LL [23:15] [Sharpe] true, but that means that half isn't [23:16] [UnO_AFK] Just tell Togas I've taken over military production and am driving you builders insane [23:16] [Kloreep] Also, one other thing we should do: Keep bugging MZ for chats [23:16] [UnO_AFK] Irrational numbers. [23:16] [UnO_AFK] etc. [23:16] [Kloreep] Hehe [23:16] [UnO_AFK] [23:16] [Sharpe] yeah , MZ might slip up like RP says he did in the Bobian War [23:16] [Kloreep] Yeah [23:17] [Kloreep] Or even if he's careful, he either keeps his lips tight or comes up with excuses [23:17] [Kloreep] Either of those would give more signs that LL is coming [23:17] [Sharpe] I still suspect that LL may wait for Leo's [23:17] [Kloreep] Which, I would like to stress, we are not totally sure of right now [23:17] [UnO_AFK] We know their comming, our goal now is to figure out where and when. [23:17] [UnO_AFK] Galleys, scouting warriors [23:17] [Kloreep] Yep [23:17] [Sharpe] yeah, clearly WE are the target [23:17] [Sharpe] that much is fairly obvious now [23:18] [Kloreep] We need to get a unit stationed between Kung and Lolita [23:18] [Kloreep] Come to think of it, that's where Salt should have gone [23:18] [Kloreep] Oh well, he can later [23:19] [UnO_AFK] Watch the mil advisor, that'll be a good indication of when. [23:19] [Kloreep] Yep [23:19] [ZargonX] yes, we are strong v. all right now [23:19] [ZargonX] if we suddnely jump to weak vs. LL, we know the time is nigh [23:20] [Kloreep] Or even even vs. LL [23:20] [Kloreep] We do have a fairly large military [23:20] [Sharpe] we might want to tell Sunshine that we suspect that LL has up to 20 warriors - underestimating the real size of their force - may make them overconfident [23:20] [Kloreep] And it will be getting bigger [23:20] [Kloreep] Sharpe: Then they might want numbers to back that estimate up though... [23:21] [Sharpe] hmm, yeah maybe [23:21] [Kloreep] As far as the attack timeline goes, LL does seem to be in their last phase of construction; they've pretty much completed all their cities, now they just need warriors and gold [23:22] [Kloreep] Another good thing: IIRC there is no non-jungle path to us. Either they build galleys, or they can't bring cats with them [23:22] [Sharpe] good point [23:22] [Sharpe] question: do we goto republic earlier so that we can get the happiness bonus or remain in despotism to maintain a larger army? [23:22] [UnO_AFK] I WANT them to bring us some more cats. [23:23] [Kloreep] UnO: Not if we build a wall in Kung Pao I don't... [23:23] [Kloreep] Sharpe: Well, for one thing, we aren't too prepared happiness-wise [23:23] [Kloreep] Though we will be much more so once Egg Roll builds happiness improvements [23:23] [UnO_AFK] There's Monarchy... [23:24] [Sharpe] no one has researched Monarchy [23:25] [Kloreep] As far as Rep goes, I think we'll be ready in about 10 or 15 turns [23:25] [Kloreep] Ready as long as we're willing to do 10% lux that is [23:25] [ZargonX] LL only has 3 port cities, if I recall [23:25] [ZargonX] and one is on the far side of their land [23:25] [ZargonX] not very condusive to massive naval invasions... [23:25] [Sharpe] more than that I think [23:26] [ZargonX] well, not counting the far south cities, which I doubt they would use [23:26] [Kloreep] I think perhaps a bigger question is whether we want to deal with WW when attacked or, especially, on the attack [23:26] [UnO_AFK] Not massive, but enough to transport some cats across the jungle [23:26] [Kloreep] Yeah, I bet they could build enough galleys to transport cats so long as the legions went on foot [23:26] [Kloreep] I hope they don't though; they could knock down Kung Pao's walls [23:26] [Kloreep] Though we would get the first shot [23:27] [Sharpe] actually I think Minerva and Perla would be their main ports [23:27] [Sharpe] Diana would only be useful for a diversionary force landing [23:28] [Sharpe] Urania and Marina are ports in the north [23:28] [Sharpe] and their new city in the NE is a port [23:28] [Sharpe] so 6 ports [23:29] [Sharpe] we have 3 in comparison [23:29] [Kloreep] Anyone mind if I post a log of this long chat in the forum? [23:29] [Sharpe] sure [23:29] [Sharpe] don't mind [23:29] [Kloreep] Once it's done that is [23:29] [Sharpe] besides we have to in order to have MZ's chat [23:29] [Kloreep] I already posted the MZ chat [23:29] [UnO_AFK] I'm done. We get 15-20 warriors, cats, and start the horsies, I'll happily fight a defensive war against legions. [23:29] [Kloreep] I was thinking what follows should go in the forum though [23:30] [Kloreep] And some of what came before too I suppose [23:30] [UnO_AFK] Let's work on Sunshine, offer pop units after the initial assault. [23:30] [ZargonX] I'll keep sweet talking Togas [23:31] [Sharpe] hmm, btw, Sunshine can send Catapults toward us [23:31] [ZargonX] though, you'd think if they were involved in planning a war against us, they'd have tried to get more than 50g out of us for Constr [23:31] [Sharpe] yeah that is true... [23:31] [Kloreep] Re: Sunshine, might be hard for them too [23:31] [Kloreep] Though I'm sure they have a path somewhere [23:32] [Kloreep] This war may hinge on Sunshine... if they attack too, we'll almost certainly have to fight on two fronts [23:32] [Sharpe] they do , there is a line of hills E of our unit down there [23:32] [Kloreep] Hmm [23:32] [Kloreep] Hoplites backed by cats=not good *nothing major after this point, except the Togas chat Zargon has posted*

Let's discuss our plans!

	07-02-2004 20:17									#3
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quote: One who has a surplus of the unorthodox will obtain surpassing victories

Can someone send me the save again, I need an updated map of what will be the front.

However, Last night I had a dream of our defense. It will involve some unique use of some rarely used aspects of CivIII. It will utilize our Horsemen as a major portion of defense in absorbing the attack of the Legions, and in weakening the Hoplites should they advance as well while at the same time not endangering them.

Most importantly, it will require that we no longer trade our map again, to fully take advantage of the surprises I am working on, and it will also require we be prepared to lose some border cities:

quote: There are roads that are not followed There are armies that are not attacked There are fortified cities taht are not assaulted There is terrain for which one does not contend

Our enemy is large and with form, it is with the formless that we will await and conquer them.

(yes, UnO reads far too much Sun Tzu)

	08-02-2004 02:47									#4
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx Can someone send me the save again, I need an updated map of what will be the front.

Odd, the latest save e-mails have you in the sent-to field. Oh well. You can download the latest save from the latest turn report

quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx However, Last night I had a dream of our defense. It will involve some unique use of some rarely used aspects of CivIII. It will utilize our Horsemen as a major portion of defense in absorbing the attack of the Legions, and in weakening the Hoplites should they advance as well while at the same time not endangering them.

Horsemen as a major portion would be good. I must admit I don't like building slowmover swords with Riders on the horizon.

quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx Most importantly, it will require that we no longer trade our map again, to fully take advantage of the surprises I am working on, and it will also require we be prepared to lose some border cities:

No problem with the map; Togas requested that we send our WM after we sent the turn, so we may trade next turn (in order to reveal barb camps again), but other than that I don't think we have any map trading coming up.

However, be aware that our opponents could track or road construction by looking at the commerce on tiles. I don't think they spend the time on it, but it is possible.

quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx quote: There are roads that are not followed There are armies that are not attacked There are fortified cities taht are not assaulted There is terrain for which one does not contend Our enemy is large and with form, it is with the formless that we will await and conquer them. (yes, UnO reads far too much Sun Tzu)

I look forward to reading your plan.

	08-02-2004 03:52									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

We're still going to need the slow movers initially, but I remembered a particular PM where I held off a cavalry charge of 60 unit with not but my 30 keshiks and a mountain range till I was able to research Nationalism (the attacker was supposed to give mt mil tradition, well timed backstab). As such, I think we can hold them off between the cats and the initial swords long enough to get some Rider going. By then, it's over anyway.

We can employ the same trick here, which will frustrate them and act as free catapults, by building some well placed fortresses. (Keshiks have Zone of Control, but we'll have to MAKE ours.)

The west has two particularly well placed hills for such a tactic if SS is to invade as well. The East, I am working on. And working on what tile to cover against a naval landing in the south. 6 legions circumventing the quagmire we will be making would be bad...so, we will need to prevent landing.

I also want a counter-attack plan in place, but I'll work on that, and it won't be in place for the beginning. It's goal will be pillaging, not conquest, slowing reinforcements and cutting lux/resources will be the goal.

	08-02-2004 19:35									#6
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I looked it over and it would take at least 12 units to secure the coast against an invasion.

Eventually, ideally, these will be horses, but that won't happen at once. Perhaps more warriors are in order as a result, but I will have to see later.

Here is the shot of the Eastern front, forgive the lousy graphics.

I would like to have 2 sets of forts, so that our units can retreat and still have ZoC on the next advance as well. We need to get our horses out and scouting the area so that we can see things comming.

Once the Horses see the force comming, they would retreat to the fortress and await/get the free shots on the advancing troops.

Even if we only hit 1/5 I would be more than happy with the forts.

Ideally, we would get a scout along the coast past their city as well to both pillage the road that they should be building and see the army comming.

Forgot attachements don't work in here, give me a minute.

Last edited by UnOrthOdOx on 08-02-2004 at 19:47

	08-02-2004 19:38									#7
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On the west, we really should get a city up on that second Iron soon.

There are also 2 hills that are ideally located to have forts cover that side of the land.

I would like to propose that we begin building a road to paradise (sunshine city). This will serve to make a trade route, hopefully improve relations, and act as a scout for THEIR advance.

Last edited by UnOrthOdOx on 08-02-2004 at 19:48

	09-02-2004 03:39									#8
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx I looked it over and it would take at least 12 units to secure the coast against an invasion.

We might be able to make do with less; thanks to roads, we could shift such a landing shield. But we'll certainly need more units for this...

quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx Here is the shot of the Eastern front, forgive the lousy graphics.

Better than I could do.

quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx I would like to have 2 sets of forts, so that our units can retreat and still have ZoC on the next advance as well. We need to get our horses out and scouting the area so that we can see things comming. Once the Horses see the force comming, they would retreat to the fortress and await/get the free shots on the advancing troops. Even if we only hit 1/5 I would be more than happy with the forts.

I'm a little confused on ZoC... it only takes effect when a unit moves from one tile adjacent to the ZoC stack to another tile also adjacent, correct? So we would be assuming-hoping they'd try to bypass the fort rather than attack it. Assuming these are Legions we're talking about, they might choose to just attack the horses.

I guess we might be able to discourage this by moving in defensive spear/pikes (easy enough with the proper roads). We could even move our whole force in, bombarding away with the cats. But then we risk fighting the whole battle there, losing the extra +25% bonus we'd get making our stand in Kung. In short, I'm not really sure how we can count on them bypassing the eastern forts rather than attacking.

The western ones by Kung are on better terrain and would discourage attack; BUT, we cannot cover both forts at once without splitting our defensive forces. If we don't leave a fort open, they might be able to take the one on the hill; if we do leave the hill fort open, they take it and we have to cover Kung, potentially having to abandon the mountain fort and thereby letting them take it.

So... why four forts? Why not just the two red ones?

quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx Ideally, we would get a scout along the coast past their city as well to both pillage the road that they should be building and see the army comming.

We should probably just send a warrior.

Salt, perhaps?

	09-02-2004 03:50									#9
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx On the west, we really should get a city up on that second Iron soon.

While I don't particularly like the site, it could make a decent camp city.

quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx There are also 2 hills that are ideally located to have forts cover that side of the land.

Looks good. Though we will likely have to abandon them to Sunshine should they approach with enough offensive units.

quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx I would like to propose that we begin building a road to paradise (sunshine city). This will serve to make a trade route, hopefully improve relations, and act as a scout for THEIR advance.

Sounds good.

We need more western workers...

	09-02-2004 03:56									#10
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I suspect that LL will probably try to grab that horse resource with a city - we should probably try to build a city on the coast N of it to prevent LL from having a shared coastline with us.

But if they build a horse city, that will move their gathering point a fair bit closer to us which may reduce the effectiveness of a horsemen patrol.

	09-02-2004 20:20									#11
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That's why getting a single horse S of all that would be ideal.

The other thing, we have a few scouts in the nether regions to the south...we should be bringing them home.

All in all, LL would actually be better off smacking MAST around, setting up a second core a bit N of them and then just waiting to out-produce us in the MA.

Do we get involved in such a scenario?

How much?

	09-02-2004 20:25									#12
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Good point re taking on MAST and outproducing us - especially if they try to get Sunshine involved and giving them some of MAST's sphere of influence.

Btw, don't know if you have loaded the current turn yet, but LL founded 2 more cities this turn - one near the island and one E of the horse in the west.

	09-02-2004 21:42									#13
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep We might be able to make do with less; thanks to roads, we could shift such a landing shield. But we'll certainly need more units for this...

No, we couldn't unfortunately. That was counting for 3 move galles, to cover each square along that path that they could land on.

quote: I'm a little confused on ZoC... it only takes effect when a unit moves from one tile adjacent to the ZoC stack to another tile also adjacent, correct? So we would be assuming-hoping they'd try to bypass the fort rather than attack it. Assuming these are Legions we're talking about, they might choose to just attack the horses. I guess we might be able to discourage this by moving in defensive spear/pikes (easy enough with the proper roads). We could even move our whole force in, bombarding away with the cats. But then we risk fighting the whole battle there, losing the extra +25% bonus we'd get making our stand in Kung. In short, I'm not really sure how we can count on them bypassing the eastern forts rather than attacking.

You know, this might be in PTW, in my experience in C3C when you are at war, it is when the enter they can be attacked. That's how I even found out Keshiks HAD ZoC, and employed a moving wall of ZoC for defense....

On Kung, I highly doubt they will be interested in fighting the battle there when they could bypass it. I certainly wouldn't attack it if I had the numbers to go around.

quote: The western ones by Kung are on better terrain and would discourage attack; BUT, we cannot cover both forts at once without splitting our defensive forces. If we don't leave a fort open, they might be able to take the one on the hill; if we do leave the hill fort open, they take it and we have to cover Kung, potentially having to abandon the mountain fort and thereby letting them take it.

The point of the 4 would be to allow them to enter ZoC and be attacked, then Pillage and move back with the horses the next turn. THAT turn, they would be next to Kung, and depending on WHERE, we could pillage the remaining fort and go into Kung for the battle. Again, PTW may treat ZOC differently, I'll have to test it. I'll try to get that tonight.

	09-02-2004 21:45									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Sharpe Btw, don't know if you have loaded the current turn yet, but LL founded 2 more cities this turn - one near the island and one E of the horse in the west.

No, I can't till I get home, where exactly is the horse city?

Sounds like setting up a second core to me...

We can't really allow that, now, can we?

	14-02-2004 20:26									#15
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re the recent chats with MAST and Sunshine:

It seems to me that Sunshine's agreement to sign the MPP was mostly to avoid us from attacking them. As far as any LL-Tabemono war goes, they will likely take a "wait and see" attitude to see who might win. Logically, they could prefer a LL win IF Sunshine got a fairly large amount of our area (the west and near the KungPao area at least).

MAST though has little to gain from a Tabemono defeat, so may be more willing to help us. The only thing they could gain would be a relocation to our area from their current poor position. On the other hand, a Tabemono victory would likely give them some of LL's territory.

It does appear to be becoming more obvious that Tabemono is likely the LL target. They are probably using the horse and spices as excuses to the other 2 civs, but it is a perfect staging area for any offensive against us. They are likely building a barracks in the new horse city and a harbor in the spice city. They may send warriors by ship or by land and upgrade them in the horse city.

You all probably noticed that they moved one of their warriors right up against our KungPao border last turn. Possibly, this unit is acting as a spy against KungPao - for possible movement into KungPao - though if the other civs asked they would likely say that it is being used as an advanced warning scout against any Tabemono attack (which it is perhaps as well).

The timing of any LL attack will likely be as follows (IMO anyway): They will gladly trade Feud for Eng with us as that gets them one step closer to their goal of Invention. - and their likely goal of Leo's. They will probably try to attack us after they get Invention but before or slightly after we would get Chivalry (as our Riders would have much better success in any encounter against their Legions due to their retreat ability). Slightly after won't bother them that much as they may feel that we can't upgrade enough horses or build enough Riders in time.

Depending on how fast they can upgrade their warriors, they may wait until they are close to gunpowder to provide better defense for their attack forces and any counter-attack by Tabemono.

It is then likely critical that we reach an agreement to get Monotheism as soon as possible with Sunshine. If Sunshine is in league with LL, they will likely refuse any offer - probably with the excuse that they aren't planning on attacking so they won't need Feudalism until much later. If so, we might be forced to either not sign the trade agreement with LL re Feud-Eng trade in order to slow them down or find another way to get Mono (MAST is a small possibility although given their slow rate of research and lack of money, they will likely be doing a 40 turn research to get money for upgrades for their jaguars).

EDIT:

Just another thought - if LL finds out about our MPP with Sunshine (very likely) or a possible alliance with MAST - it is very possible that they will use a small diversion force and attack MAST first , trying to force us to attack LL - especially if we are in Republic at the time - it is likely to be a long war so War Weariness may be a useful weapon. If so, we might want to think about ways to avoid such a trap and get LL to attack us instead.

Last edited by Sharpe on 14-02-2004 at 20:48

	14-02-2004 21:49									#16
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I'd like to propose a sub-strategy of our defense plans. I think we may be well suited to have a small division located at one of our Japan cities ready to be deployed directly to the LL mainland if the attack comes our way. Just a group of horsemen to land and tear up their infrastructure, which will both harm them and force them to divert forces to deal with our "raiders"

	15-02-2004 03:16									#17
	Increase Your PM Length

3 galleys 6 horse, I was thinking along the same path.